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Darth Vader was a likable fellow

Discussion in 'Movies' started by KAT-KAT, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    10 things Darth Vader did right, written by me:

    1. He in his unmaddened state genuinely cared about his wife Padme and he was seeking a way to save her from the nightmares in his dreams which he believed to be true.

    2. Rather than seeking a death penalty for Palpatine, he wanted him to have a fair trial, showing at the time he still believed in justice.

    3. He put up with the Jedi council's unfair and dogmatic rules for years before swearing allegiance to Darth Sidious.

    4. He became suspicious of Padme, but Obi-Wan lied several times throughout the trilogies and rather than not trusting Padme, he did have right to distrust Obi-Wan. Padme just got in the way of his anger.

    5. He cared about his son Luke even before he saved him from Sidious. I believe it was in the first movie that he used the Force to cause the Storm Troopers to miss every shot on Luke and Leia, causing the remark from I believe Luke that this was all too easy.

    6. He cared about his mother and seemed to have felt genuine bond with her.

    7. He seemed to believe in true love even in the face of everything, only having the occasional doubt.

    8. Though Palpatine turned out to be kind of crazy, Anakin displayed open-mindedness by listening to alternative paths to salvation.

    9. He wanted to rule the universe with his son. Even if it meant doing as Sith do and having to betray and destroy his master Sidious.

    10. He cared about his family despite ending up a bit unstable and prone to mistakes. He risked his life for Luke and never really seemed to get over Padme.

    So my question is, who is the villian, is it really him, or is it Obi-Wan and Darth Sidious and even others such as Yoda and Mace Windu?
     
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  2. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    The Jedi are a very base, simplistic interpretation of a hybrid of Buddhism and Bushido. Not really capturing either and coming off more like cold, detached hermits who don't get involved even when they could be helping, out of a sort of fear of attachment.

    Many fell to sith because completely cutting off your emotion just isn't healthy. Just like being completely ruled by your emotion isn't healthy either.

    Ultimately giving into emotion was Vader's weakness and strength. It was his weakness when consumed by rage and he killed a lot of innocent people. And it was his strength when he couldn't abide seeing his son being killed, even for the sith principals he took up.

    In the extended cannon there's an order called the Revanites or gray jedi which were a mixture of 'it's okay to power yourself with emotion and know when to put your emotions to the side.' Much more of a Taoist stereotype. Accepting that negative and positive emotions are both natural parts of you and recognizing, accepting and channeling them correctly is how you be a healthy person.
     
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  3. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Basically. Anakin Skywalker is a tragic hero. The "good guys" used him and lied to him, and then the bad guy who pointed that out to him did the same thing to him.
    And there is no denying he loved his mother, loved Padme, and through love of his son fulfilled Sith tradition of apprentice rising against master, as well as bringing a total balance to the force, a Jedi who had been to the extremes of both and a Jedi who also walks the paths of both being the only two left (until the one dies shortly after leaving the one). George Lucas has always said it is Anakin's story.
    But, however, this does make Qui-Gon Jinn an extremely important character of very high significance, for he is the catalyst who set into motion the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force, with himself also being a Grey Jedi who is also an exemplary character of Chaotic Lawful and true paragon of dedication to the Force (I've always suspected he knew what it meant for that prophecy to be fulfilled).
     
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  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    The Jedi Council was basically a bunch of pompous douches given to avarice. Sidious was taking over, and likely breaking Sith tradition and tacking on multiple apprentices, and Anakin really is the victim in it all, a conditioned response to be being a tool of self-serving bungholes and dickweeds. Then he really got screwed, becoming what was no doubt an emotionally numb and void Darth Vader.
     
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  5. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Darth Vader was a tragic figure and bought into deceptions beyond his control. Taking a bite of lies and never knowing the truth from the lies he became an enraged psychopath.

    He estranged himself from everything he loved.

    His over confidence and cockiness, and his impatience were all weaknesses that were fully exploited. Far from being a Jedi, he was easily fooled and had too much power for his own good.

    I think one of his greatest sins was to obsess about securing his life in the world and being fearful of losing everything he loved. That was his dark side. His dark side came from holding onto his life too tightly.

    Anakin finally regretted everything that seduced him. Compassion was something he never learned til he repented.

    Jedi is a compassionate defender. Sith is just gaining power through manipulation, temptation, and using others for gain. Sith's prey on weakness.

    I don't think the story was going to be anything more then that.

    Of course people are going to use the generalities of the story concepts to make it what they want it to be.
     
  6. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    The story might be way more rather than less, considering later narratives claim that the Jedi and Sith were both equally bad and both were strong misusers of what was intended of the Force. :)
     
  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    The Jedi come across as being weak and fooled by grande deceptions. The Jedi Council was, at its best, totally confused. They are all tragic heroes. They were blinded and betrayed victims who were masters of very little.

    The only thing that makes the Jedi order worthwhile is that they all were compassionate. Obi wan and yoda only became wise after they went into hiding.

    Luke repeated their foolishness with more bad training of Ben Solo. Luke was another tragic hero. So really the Jedi are naive up until episode 8.

    So with future trilogies they need to make the Jedi less foolhearty. Next time around they should be more wise to their enemies.
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    He was young, and frequently had his life dangled in front of him. He was very poorly taught, poorly instructed, and the guidance he had was horrible. The abuses he suffered primes people for falling for the first person who seems to actually care and offer them a path to do something about their problems (this is basically radicalization 101 in real life).
    In every sense possible, Anakin needed love, understanding, and compassion. No one showed those to him, and when he needed those the most he had only more deception and plots to use him revealed.

    No, they're just douches. Luke isn't a tragic hero either. Anakin is the tragic hero.
    Tragic hero - Wikipedia
    How many of the books have you read?
     
  9. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    There are many films in the increasingly inaccurately named Star wars trilogy.
     
  10. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Hard to say who the true villains were in the overall story. Maybe the midi-chlorians were the true villains. It was Anakin's high midi-chlorian count which got Qui-Gon's attention initially.

    There were significant weaknesses in their political system, which was neither a "republic" or even a true "empire" in practice. It was more of a loose confederation where chaos reigned outside of the core worlds.

    Apparently, there was little information and such poor communication/organization that the Trade Federation could invade an occupy a member world (Naboo) and somehow this went unnoticed by everyone else. Even in the Senate, the Trade Federation said "there is no proof" that their forces had taken over the planet. What kind of fouled-up political system did they actually have?

    They didn't even really seem to know what planets there were in their own jurisdiction, and the only apparent map was in the Jedi archives. If someone tampered with the archive and erased a planet from memory, then the conclusion was that "it doesn't exist." Nobody really thought of making backup copies of the map or distributing it to the rest of the society.

    No wonder it was so easy to persuade some factions to join a separatist council and trigger a civil war. Anakin recognized that their political system was messed up, while Padme seemed to believe that the war was caused by "a failure to listen."
     
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