1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Daniel 9:21, The Man Gabriel

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Faithofchristian, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,867
    Ratings:
    +570
    Religion:
    Christian
    Well your wrong that one first off.
    As I don't have any Private Interpretation
    As it is written in 2 Peter 1:20---"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation"

    Therefore my duty as a Christian is to stay within the guidelines of the bible/scriptures. Therefore I have no Private Interpretation of the bible/scriptures.
    As everything is already written within the Bible/scriptures, that doesn't need any Interpretation.
    That's why it's written in 2 Peter 1:20
    "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation"

    So there's no Private interpretation or any Interpretations of the bible/scriptures
     
  2. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,296
    Ratings:
    +417
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hi FaithofChristian

    1) Regarding your new claim that your personal interpretation of Gen 1:26 is NOT a personal interpretation.


    This is another illogical and irrational claim since readers can see that you obvious DO offer personal interpretation to scriptures.

    In post #92, you quoted Gen 1:26 : “…And God said, Let us make man in our image….”
    You then offered your personal interpretation, explaining what the text means to you, saying “ Notice above God said Let us, The ( us) being angels. (FaithofChristian, post #92)


    Interpret means to explain the meaning of”. When you "explain the meaning of" the scripture "to you", this is the essence of "personal interpretation".

    I then quoted Barnabas to indicate what this scripture meant to early Christians : "For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: 'Let us make man according to our image and likeness….These things he said to the Son." The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12; (Clear, Post #93)

    Thus, in your personal interpretation, God spoke to angels. In early Christian texts such as Barnabas, God was speaking to the son.

    My question was WHY you think YOUR personal interpretation of scripture has priority over the interpretation of the earliest Christians?


    2) Regarding your claim that “the man Gabriel’ does NOT have gender.
    This seems (to me) to be another illogical and incoherent theory. For example :

    In the opening Post, YOU quoted Daniel 9:21"while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice"
    (FaithofChristian, Post #1)

    YOUR conclusion in YOUR opening post concludes “As I don't understand how many people can't accept it, The Angel Gabriel as being a Man.” (FaithofChristian in post #1)

    Your next personal theory is : “Look Angels do not have genders.” (
    FaithofChristian post #99) indicating the "the man Gabriel" is NOT a "man" but is, instead, "genderless".

    You then offered yet another personal theory, saying
    …angels do not have the male genital system..." (FaithofChristian post #99)

    I don’t see any rational logic behind these multiple personal theories you offer us.

    You first point out that the scripture refers to Gabriel as a “man”, then claim the “man Gabriel” does not have a gender. You then offer another personal theory that “the man Gabriel” doesn’t have male genitalia.

    Why do you theorize that “the man Gabriel” of Daniel 9:21 is not male?

    Why do you theorize that ‘the man Gabriel” of Daniel 9:21 has no male genitalia?


    1) Can you describe the rationale, the logic, the data and how these theories can become coherent theories?

    2) I do not think your personal theories and interpretations are as logical, as rational and as coherent as the early Christian worldviews and their interpretations (e.g. your personal interpretation of Genesis 1:26 that we’ve already discussed). Why should your personal interpretation of scripture have priority over the interpretation of early Christianity?

    FaithofChristian, I think it is good that you attempt to form personal religious theories and religious models, I am looking to see why such incoherent and irrational (so far) theories have any credibility or advantage over the concept that “maleness” in the case of “the man Gabriel” indicates gender.


    In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful FaithofChristian


    Clear
    ακσετζω
     
    #102 Clear, Mar 24, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,898
    Ratings:
    +7,028
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    According to scripture, satan the devil is a master of deception. Providing the means for a person to deceive themselves is nothing new for him. All he has to do is dabble in a bit of "special revelation" and those who experience it jump to conclusions about being "special" themselves....chosen by God to disseminate his truth to the world......but who among these thousands of people actually ARE "special"?

    If all those who claim special revelation agreed with one another, then that would provide a likelihood of something cohesive and amazing if they had no contact with each other and all came to the same conclusions.....but unfortunately that is not the case. These "lone rangers" are only special to themselves....either deluded by a master deceiver....or the victim of mental illness...neither of which is obvious to them. :(


    Angels have no gender because they are not beings who reproduce. They are all direct creations of God through his son. (Colossians 1:13-17) The apostle Paul again highlights why they never appeared as women.....

    1 Corinthians 11:3...
    "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."

    Headship was a way to keep order in God's arrangement, both in marriage and in worship. Even in heaven Christ is under the headship of his God and Father.

    There are no female angels because these spirit beings materialized as men to convey God's instructions to his earthly servants. To appear as female would have gone against that arrangement, though some women in Israel apparently were prophetesses, they never usurped the role given to men.

    I am sure if the information contained in the Abbaton literature was useful to us, it would be included in the Bible canon for all to read. The Bible itself gives us information about angels and apparently they were not to interact with humankind too much, lest the humans should fall to worshipping them. We saw this with the angel who delivered John's Revelation. (Revelation 1:1)

    Revelation 19:9-10....
    "And he [the angel] tells me: “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.”

    Also the angel who spoke to Samson's father Manoa...

    Judges 13:17-18....
    "Then Ma·noʹah said to Jehovah’s angel: “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?18 However, Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Why are you asking about my name, seeing that it is a wonderful one?
    He never divulged it.


    Jacob too wrestled with an angel who changed his name to Israel.
    "Jacob inquired: “Tell me, please, your name.” However, he said: “Why is it that you ask my name?” With that he blessed him there."

    Obviously, angels were instructed not to divulge their names.

    There are only two angels named in all of scripture...Gabriel and Michael. We do not even know the name of "satan the devil" because both are merely descriptions of his character.....his name has never been allowed to enter human consciousness.

    The Bible itself calls them spirits. (Hebrews 1:14) They reside in heaven with God. (Matthew 18:10)

    Job 38:4-7 says that these heavenly "sons of God" witnessed creation. Since Genesis says that the creation of the heavens and the earth was one act (Genesis 1:1) before the universe existed, what was there? There was the invisible realm where God and his spirit sons exist.
    The angels were in that realm with God before the material universe was created.

    In Hebrews 12:21-23 Paul speaks of the powerful display of God's manifestation on the mountain before his people after their release from Egypt....

    "the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels in general assembly...."

    It isn't a theory but a Biblical reality IMV. Jesus himself was raised as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) He too materialized in order to appear to his apostles after his resurrection to convey instructions to them and to strengthen them for the difficult road ahead. He "appeared" and "disappeared" at will. Do you find this hard to believe?
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,867
    Ratings:
    +570
    Religion:
    Christian
    My first question would be for you, have you any idea or clue what it means to have Spiritual discernment.
    As written in the book of Corinthians 2:14
    "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned"

    This means in the bible there are things that take spiritual discernment to understand what the Spirit of God is saying, in the Spiritual Realm of things.

    Well it's quite obvious as to who God was talking to, ( When God said, Let's us make man in our likeness and after our image)

    So who else would God be talking to other than the Angels?

    Therefore there is no Interpretation to it, just plain common sense is all it takes.

    Now can you show just one place in the Bible/scriptures that shows Angels as having a gender as you say ?

    Now seeing that Angels can not reproduce themselves
    As humans there is the male gender and the female gender, which by the two can reproduce themselves.
    Which the Angels are unable to do.
    And why is that?
    Because there is no female Angels, Only angels in the likeness of man.

    The meaning of Gender

    1. Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
      "a condition that affects people of both genders"

    2. GRAMMAR(in languages such as Latin, Greek, Russian, and German) each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, common, neuter) of nouns and pronouns distinguished by the different inflections that they have and require in words syntactically associated with them. Grammatical gender is only very loosely associated with natural distinctions of sex"
    In the book of Isaiah 55:8-9
    8--"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord"

    9--"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"


    So your thought would be Angels as having a gender, But God's thoughts are not your thoughts, nor is God's ways your ways of looking at things.

    So show in the bible/scriptures where God said Angels as having a gender as you say.
     
  5. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,296
    Ratings:
    +417
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hi Deeje

    1) Regarding personal revelation

    Please do not misunderstand me. I DO believe that many, many individuals are receiving revelation. I think the spirit of God communicates to many individuals. For example, I believe the spirit itself witnesses to many individuals, that there is a God; That God loves them, that Jesus is the Christ and I believe the spirit can and does give personal insights about many, many things to individuals of faith.


    What I questioned was FaithofChristian’s specific claim to personal revelation as an appeal to greater credibility for his personal theories, especially when such claims are used simply as an attempt to create credibility. I certainly believe FaithofChristian may have had authentic revelations and insights originating from the spirit of god. BUT, when his insights and theories differ from others who have a conflicting view and who also have had spiritual insights, then this begs the question as to why his personal revelations have more authority than the personal revelation of others with conflicting views.


    2) Regarding your “evidence” that angels do not have gender

    “Angels have no gender because they are not beings who reproduce.” (Deeje, post #103)

    Your data does not support the conclusion. Many men and women have not reproduced, either by choice (essenes and individuals of monastic orders such as priests, nuns,etc.) or by changes in function (genetic or organic changes in otherwise normal bodies, etc.). This does not mean that these individuals do not have gender. A man who does not produce sperm is still a man. Women who have scarred fallopian tubes are still women. If angels are prevented from reproduction by design, this does not mean they are genderless. It merely means they do not reproduce by design.


    If “The man Gabriel” of Daniel 9:21 does not or cannot reproduce, this fact alone, does not make him “genderless” nor that the man Gabriel has no genitals. The same lapse in logic and fact and incoherence undermines FaithofChristians’ personal theory.



    Hi FaithofChristian

    1)Regarding who God the Father spoke to in the Beginning, saying, “let us make man in our image” (Gen 1:26)


    In this last post you provided your logic underlying your personal interpretation that God was speaking to angels when he said "let us make man in our image" saying :
    "Well it's quite obvious as to who God was talking to, ( When God said, Let's us make man in our likeness and after our image). So who else would God be talking to other than the Angels?" (FaithofChristian, Post #104)

    Early Christian Texts tells us Christians felt that God the Father was speaking to THE SON (and NOT to angels)
    4th century New Testament Barnabas (C. Sinaiticus) scripture indicates the Father was speaking to the son : "For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: 'Let us make man according to our image and likeness….These things he said to the Son." The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12; (Clear, Post #93)

    These early Christians felt that the son (as the logos) was in the beginning with God the Father. “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, the same was in the beginning with God….” John 1:1

    I think the doctrine of this early Christianity is more rational and logical and based on better data than your personal theory.

    My question was Why YOUR personal theories and personal interpretations should have more authority than their doctines and worldviews.



    2) Regarding your theory that “the man Gabriel’ does NOT have gender nor does he have genitalia.

    Your personal theory relies on your single premise : "Now seeing that Angels can not reproduce themselves" (FaithofChristian, post #104).

    The principle that a person or an animal or an angel does not (or cannot) reproduce does not mean the person or the animal or the angel does not have gender. As I pointed out, there are many, many, many examples of individual men and women (who have gender AND genitalia) who have, by choice or design or by fault, have not, or could not reproduce. As I mentioned to Deeje, A man who does not produce sperm is still a man. Women who have scarred fallopian tubes are still women. If angels are prevented from reproduction by design, this does not mean they are genderless. It merely means they do not reproduce.

    It is illogical and irrational and incoherent to conclude that those men and women who could not reproduce do not have gender, nor is it logical to conclude that they do not have genitalia. The logic and conclusion is faulty. Daniel 9:21 says "while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me..." . I see no reason for you to interpret that the man Gabriel has no gender and than the man Gabriel has no genitalia.

    Do you have any logical and rational reason to believe that “the man Gabriel” of Daniel 9:21 has no gender and had no genitalia?

    In any case, I wish Deeje and you both, a wonderful spiritual journey in this life as you try to create sensical models as to what scriptures mean and what is going on in the texts.

    Clear
    νεειακω
     
    #105 Clear, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,867
    Ratings:
    +570
    Religion:
    Christian

    That's all because those Christians were following man's teachings and not the teachings of Christ Jesus.
    Big difference.

    As Christ Jesus himself condemned the teachings of man's in Matthew 15:7-9.
    7--" You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

    8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    9--"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

    Would you care to explain as to why Christ Jesus is found in condemning man's teachings and doctrines?

    You said here-->( Do you have any logical and rational reason to believe that “the man Gabriel” of Daniel 9:21 has no gender and had no genitalia?)

    This all can be proven as Christ Jesus said himself in Matthew 22:30--"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven"
    Therefore if we are to be like the angels in heaven, then that means there is no gender or genitals with Angels or otherwise why would God need to create angels if Angels are able to reproduce themselves?
    Therefore Angels do not have genitals or gender, otherwise why would Christ Jesus say we will be like the angels in heaven that are not given in marriage?
    Marriage is being able to reproduce

    As you can not provide one book and chapter and verses in the bible that will prove that Angels are able to reproduce themselves.
    To be given in marriage that means being able to reproduce themselves.
    As male and female.

    As you can not provide one book and chapter and verses in the bible that will say there will be female Angels in heaven.

    Now in the book of Job 1:6--"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them"

    Here we find the sons of God, Have you any clue or idea who the sons of God are?

    The sons of God's are the angels of God in heaven"
    But as anyone can see and read angels are called the sons of God.
    Exactly showing there is no females angels in heaven.
     
    #106 Faithofchristian, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  7. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,296
    Ratings:
    +417
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hi FaithofChristian

    Regarding Daniel 9:21 "while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me..." .

    Regarding your personal religious theory that the man Gabriel has no gender and that the man Gabriel has no genitalia. I asked if you had any logical and rational reason to believe that “the man Gabriel” of Daniel 9:21 has no gender and had no genitalia?.


    1) Your first supporting premise was the theory that "non reproduction" equates to "non-gender" and "no genitalia".
    You theorized that, since angels “can not reproduce”, they have no gender and no genitalia. "Now seeing that Angels can not reproduce themselves" (FaithofChristian, post #104).

    I pointed out the illogic and irrational nature of your theory since "Many individual do not reproduce, either by choice (monastic orders, birth control, etc) or by changes in function (low sperm count in men, scarred fallopian tubes in women, etc). This does not mean that these men and women do not have gender and do not have genitalia." (Clear, post #105) Non-reproduction does NOT equate to lack of gender or lack of genitalia.


    You now offer us yet another theory as to why you personally believe the man Gabriel of Daniel 21:9 has no gender and the man Daniel has no genitalia.


    2) Your second attempt at a supporting premise was the theory that "non marriage" equates to "non-gender" and "no genitalia".
    You said “This all can be proven as Christ Jesus said himself in Matthew 22:30--"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven" Therefore if we are to be like the angels in heaven, then that means there is no gender or genitals with Angels or otherwise why would God need to create angels if Angels are able to reproduce themselves? Therefore Angels do not have genitals or gender, otherwise why would Christ Jesus say we will be like the angels in heaven that are not given in marriage? Marriage is being able to reproduce.” (FaithofChristian, Post #106)

    This new theory of yours, that “marriage is being able to reproduce" is, like your last supporting theory, illogical and irrational and incoherent. You are conflating marriage and reproduction. They are two different issues. Many individuals marry and then do not reproduce. Yet they have gender and they have genitalia. Other individuals DO reproduce without being married. Non-marriage does NOT mean lack of gender or lack of genitalia.


    Please
    FaithofChristian. If you do not have any supporting data to support your theory that the man Gabriel of Daniel 9:21 has no gender and no genitalia, this is the time to admit it so as not to waste readers time (and my time) with illogical and irrational theories and incoherent data in order to support your personal interpretation of scriptures. I would like to spend time with more profound discussions rather than this theory of yours.

    I do NOT fault you for creating a system of religious beliefs that reflect your best guess as to conditions of existence. I think this is good and we all do this. However, you should not be frustrated or claim others “do not have the spirit” or claim others “do not have spiritual discernment” (as you intimate you have), when they simply ask you to offer support for your personal theories. I honor your love of God. This does not mean I and others have any obligation to accept irrational, illogical and incoherent religious theories you may offer. One cannot simply fault other Christians, (or Agnostics, or Athiests), when they decline to believe in silly or irrational arguments offered them.


    In any case, if you do not actually have any logical and rational and coherent data to support your personal interpretation of scriptures on this specific point, then I will assume your theory that the man Gabriel of Daniel 9:21 has no gender or genitalia, is a dead theory.


    However, I do thank you for your efforts at attempting to explain your theory.


    Good journey FaithofChristian
    νεφισεω
     
    #107 Clear, Mar 26, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jacob wrestling with the angel is an episode from Genesis ( 32 :22–32; also referenced in Hosea 12:4).
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184
    The context around "little ones" is found in Matthew 18:2-4. "Faith" is not mentioned. A little child's faith is not the faith which you possess. They need neither book, leader or teacher. Their faith is one of acting on what they are led to do by a pure heart. What is mentioned, is the humility of the child, something apparently, along with accuracy, is found lacking in your posts.

    Matthew 18:2-4 English Standard Version (ESV). 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    What you lack in education, you make up for in snarkiness.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184
Loading...