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Featured Daniel 9:21, The Man Gabriel

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Faithofchristian, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    In scripture Israel is also called the harlot and the whore of Babylon.. Are you questioning Isaiah calling Israel servant of God in the Servant's Song?

    Early Christians tried to claim Jesus was the suffering servant.. sort of like high-jacking Isaiah's prophesy.

    This may help.

    Early Jewish Writings

    Isaiah
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    My question is, What does any of what your saying have to do with Isaiah
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Vaticinium ex eventu. The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted. Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias. The concept is similar but distinct from postdiction, where prophecies that were genuinely written or spoken before the event.
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that for sure,
    How do you not know the event happen before the Prophecy happen.
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Because I have studied first century history. A prophet wasn't a future teller.. he was a commentator, an analyst and the conscience of the community.

    When I was a little girl going to Sunday School I didn't know that.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Servant songs are four songs in the Book of Isaiah in the Hebrew Bible, which include Isaiah 42:1-4; Isaiah 49:1-6; Isaiah 50:4-7; and Isaiah 52:13-15:12.

    They were first identified by Bernhard Duhm in his 1892 commentary on Isaiah. The songs are four poems written about a certain "servant of YHWH."

    God calls the servant to lead the nations, but the servant is horribly abused among them. In the end, he is rewarded.
     
  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ho, really and just how do you know that for sure
     
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    So what was the title of these songs that Isaiah was to sing to the people
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    So what was the title of these songs that Isaiah was to sing to the people
     
  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    So what was the title of these songs that Isaiah was to sing to the people
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be mixing up the characters which are called "Israel", which would include Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim, and "My Servant, Israel". "Ephraim"/"Israel", who is the "house of Israel" , "played the harlot" (Hosea 5:1-7), and "their deeds will not allow them to return to their God". This "Israel" is not "My Servant, Israel", the "despised one" who will "restore the preserved ones of Israel"(Isaiah 49:6-7). I am not acquainted with where Israel is called the "whore of Babylon", maybe you could be more specific. I am familiar with "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots" (Revelation 17:5), but Israel and Judah, would be just be two of the many "harlots", of which the Gentile church of Paul has a greater number. Isaiah, Jacob, and Joseph are all dead, and the present holder of the title of Israel, Ephraim, is under judgment (Hosea 5:11), and none of them represents the "despised one", "My Servant, Israel" who will "raise up the tribes of Jacob" (Isaiah 49:6). That would be the arm of God (Isaiah 53:1) , who was "despised" (Isaiah 53:3), as in the "despised one" of Isaiah 49:7. Isaiah is not the "arm" of the "Lord God" who will be ruling for Him" (Isaiah 40:10). The "root of Jesse" will be ruling. At that time the remnant of My people (the sons of Israel) will be recovered a second time by His hand, as documented by Jeremiah 16:16, in which first "fishermen" are sent out to fish for the "sons of Israel", and then later "hunters" will be sent out to hunt them down after they double repay for their iniquity. You seem to fight in the grass, relying on the traditions of men, and miss the over all view of the forest around you.

    Isaiah 53:1
    Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

    Isaiah 40:10
    Behold, the Lord GOD will come with might, With His arm ruling for Him Behold, His reward is with Him And His recompense before Him.

    Isaiah 11:1Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
    And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
    2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him,
    The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
    The spirit of counsel and strength,
    The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
    3And He will delight in the fear of the LORD,
    And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
    Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
    4But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
    And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
    And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
    And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
    5Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
    And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
    6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
    And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
    And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
    And a little boy will lead them.
    7Also the cow and the bear will graze,
    Their young will lie down together,
    And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
    8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
    And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
    9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
    As the waters cover the sea.
    10Then in that day
    The nations will resort to the root of Jesse,
    Who will stand as a signal for the peoples;
    And His resting place will be glorious.

    11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
    Will again recover the second time with His hand
    The remnant of His people,
    who will remain,
    From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
    And from the islands of the sea.
    12And He will lift up a standard for the nations
    And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
    And will gather the dispersed of Judah
    From the four corners of the earth.
    13Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart,
    And those who harass Judah will be cut off;
    Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
    And Judah will not harass Ephraim.
    14They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west;
    Together they will plunder the sons of the east;
    They will possess Edom and Moab,
    And the sons of Ammon will be subject to them.
    15And the LORD will utterly destroy
    The tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
    And He will wave His hand over the River
    With His scorching wind;
    And He will strike it into seven streams
    And make men walk over dry-shod.
    16And there will be a highway from Assyria
    For the remnant of His people who will be left,
    Just as there was for Israel

    In the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Jacob, a "Servant of God" is dead, and is not "My Servant, Israel" who will "raise up the tribes of Jacob" (Isaiah 49:6). Neither will the present Israel, who is Ephraim, the one playing the harlot (Hosea 5:3), be the one to "restore the preserved one of Israel" (Isaiah 49:6).
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Yes, about God's servant Israel.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Nope those chapters and verses that you given is not about Israel as being God servant.
    But there is someone that Isaiah is pointing to in those Chapters and Verses.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Start at the beginning.. Isaiah calls Israel the servant of God.. Do you think he changed the identity of the suffering servant half way thru?

    Christians should not have tried to sabotage the meaning of Daniel.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Isaiah 1-39 contains oracles that reflect the time of the prophet Isaiah, who prophesied in Judah in the eighth century B.C. Isaiah 40-55 contains oracles which reflect the work of a prophet who lived in Babylon in the sixth century B.C. Because this material presupposes the Babylonian exile, scholars believe that its author was probably a disciple of Isaiah.
    The emphasis of the message of Deutero-Isaiah is the restoration of Israel and the end of the exile.

    The prophet began his ministry by proclaiming a message of hope: “Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and announce to her that her time of servitude is over, her iniquity has been pardoned, and she has received from the LORD’s hand double for all her sins” (Isa 40:1-2).

    The expression “time of servitude” is a reference to the time Israel spent in forced exile in Babylon. Now, however, this time of hardship has come to an end and this good news is the focus of the message that Deutero-Isaiah preached to Israel.

    This good news, that Israel was returning home, was made possible because “her iniquity has been pardoned.”


    It is for this reason that he is called Deutero-Isaiah. Isaiah 56-66 contains several oracles that reflect a situation that presupposes the post-exilic conditions of Judah.

    snip

    Many scholars believe that the Servant is Israel or a pious remnant within the nation. This identification is supported by Yahweh’s words to the Servant: “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified” (Isa 49:3)

    The Servant Songs of Isaiah

    Remember, the suffering servant was despised of men.. Jesus was NOT despised of men.
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified” (Isa 49:3).
     
  20. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    Its Gabriella and she is the angel of water.
     
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