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Daniel 9:21, The Man Gabriel

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Does someone have Attention Deficient Syndrome? It has to do with all the children of God having an angel (Matthew 18:10). The tie in is, was Gabriel an angel or a man? According to Daniel, he was a man. According to Luke he is an angel. According to Matthew 18:10, children of God each have an angel before God. That being said, Gabriel would be linked to a son of man, or in the case of chief prince Michael, apparently linked to a kingdom (Daniel 10:13), such as Israel, such as "My Servant, Israel", "the despised one" (Isaiah 49:7).

Can you explain exactly what does all of that has to do with Luke 10:5
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Why are you way up before
Matthew 18:10.
Do you have a problem in counting from
1 to 10
Now instead of going to the previous verses try staying with verse 10.

Now can you explain what Jesus ment what he said in verse 10

I was responding to Sooda, who was trying to muddy the waters, by apparently misquoting Matthew 18:10, and adding Matthew 18: 3-4. Now if she is a JW with their own bible, then maybe she is correctly quoting from a questionable source.

[ "Little ones" - actually "little ones who believe in Me" - refers to those who have become has little children themselves and have humbled themselves in their faith (Matthew 18:3-4).]
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Does someone have Attention Deficient Syndrome? It has to do with all the children of God having an angel (Matthew 18:10). The tie in is, was Gabriel an angel or a man? According to Daniel, he was a man. According to Luke he is an angel. According to Matthew 18:10, children of God each have an angel before God. That being said, Gabriel would be linked to a son of man, or in the case of chief prince Michael, apparently linked to a kingdom (Daniel 10:13), such as Israel, such as "My Servant, Israel", "the despised one" (Isaiah 49:7).

Isaiah refers to God's servant Israel all the way thru.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I was responding to Sooda, who was trying to muddy the waters, by apparently misquoting Matthew 18:10, and adding Matthew 18: 3-4. Now if she is a JW with their own bible, then maybe she is correctly quoting from a questionable source.

[ "Little ones" - actually "little ones who believe in Me" - refers to those who have become has little children themselves and have humbled themselves in their faith (Matthew 18:3-4).]

I'm not JW..

Matthew 18:3 (KJV) - Forerunner Commentary - Bible Tools
.
Matthew 18:3. In simple terms, convert also means "to change," as in ice to water or dollars to pesos. Theologically, it means changing from sinner to saint, filthy to holy, worldly to godly. In Acts 3:19, Peter uses "repent" and "convert" together.

Matthew 18:3 (KJV) - Forerunner Commentary

18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Isaiah refers to God's servant Israel all the way thru.

"All the way thru" what? "My Servant, Israel" refers to the "Servant of rulers" the "despised one" (Isaiah 49:6) who will "bring Jacob back to Him" (Isaiah 49:5). "My Servant, Israel, is not Jacob, nor Joseph, nor the present Ephraim. He is my first born son, Israel (Exodus 4:22)

Isaiah 49:7 New American Standard Bible
Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and its Holy One, To the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers, "Kings will see and arise, Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."
 

sooda

Veteran Member
"All the way thru" what? "My Servant, Israel" refers to the "Servant of rulers" the "despised one" (Isaiah 49:6) who will "bring Jacob back to Him" (Isaiah 49:5). "My Servant, Israel, is not Jacob, nor Joseph, nor the present Ephraim. He is my first born son, Israel (Exodus 4:22)

Isaiah 49:7 New American Standard Bible
Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and its Holy One, To the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers, "Kings will see and arise, Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."

Is there any question Israel is the suffering servant?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I'm not JW..

Matthew 18:3 (KJV) - Forerunner Commentary - Bible Tools
.
Matthew 18:3. In simple terms, convert also means "to change," as in ice to water or dollars to pesos. Theologically, it means changing from sinner to saint, filthy to holy, worldly to godly. In Acts 3:19, Peter uses "repent" and "convert" together.

Matthew 18:3 (KJV) - Forerunner Commentary

18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Exactly how do you come by that
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
As to how do you come by that. Gabriel is not a link, Gabriel is a angel, not link

The OP is whether Gabriel is an angel or a man. Throwing mud on the wall is not making a case either way. My point is that the angel Gabriel would most likely represent a son of man, or a kingdom, and a very special son of man. An example is that Yeshua has "His angel" (Revelation 1:1). Whether "His angel" is Michael, Gabriel, or another angel is not specified. What is specified is that their are two "anointed ones, "two olive trees", who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zechariah 4:12-14). They would be the messengers of Revelation 11:4, and would have their own angels.

New American Standard Bible James 1:8
being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The OP is whether Gabriel is an angel or a man. Throwing mud on the wall is not making a case either way. My point is that the angel Gabriel would most likely represent a son of man, or a kingdom, and a very special son of man. An example is that Yeshua has "His angel" (Revelation 1:1). Whether "His angel" is Michael, Gabriel, or another angel is not specified. What is specified is that their are two "anointed ones, "two olive trees", who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zechariah 4:12-14). They would be the messengers of Revelation 11:4, and would have their own angels.

New American Standard Bible James 1:8
being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

As I don't how you come by all of that
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Is there any question Israel is the suffering servant?

Apparently Isaiah 52:13 -53-3 thought so.

“Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted… . He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

- Isaiah 52:13–53:3
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Apparently Isaiah 52:13 -53-3 thought so.

“Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted… . He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

- Isaiah 52:13–53:3

Isaiah is still talking about Israel. Do you think he changed it?

Isaiah 41:8
“But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.”

Isaiah 44:21 - Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (Verses like Isaiah 44:21)

Leviticus 25:42 - For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Now that doesn't make any sense

You may find this interesting or helpful.

Early Jewish writings.

"Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C.

This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author.

The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C.

The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)

continued

Daniel
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
You may find this interesting or helpful.

Early Jewish writings.

"Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C.

This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author.

The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C.

The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)

continued

Daniel


How do you that's all true
 

sooda

Veteran Member
How do you that's all true

Did you read it?

I think it is self explanatory.. Most prophesy is after the fact. Sadly, Bible scholarship is VERY poor these days.. People have been carried away by Darby and Schofield, Hal Lindsey, Lahaye, Dallas Theological Seminary and Moody Institute.. This is particularly a problem for fundamentalists, evangelicals, Dominionists and Dispensationalists. These denominations discourage education.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Did you read it?

I think it is self explanatory.. Most prophesy is after the fact. Sadly, Bible scholarship is VERY poor these days.. People have been carried away by Darby and Schofield, Hal Lindsey, Lahaye, Dallas Theological Seminary and Moody Institute.. This is particularly a problem for fundamentalists, evangelicals, Dominionists and Dispensationalists. These denominations discourage education.

If to what you say is true, Then why are you always quoting them.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Isaiah is still talking about Israel. Do you think he changed it?

Isaiah 41:8
“But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.”

Isaiah 44:21 - Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (Verses like Isaiah 44:21)

Leviticus 25:42 - For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.

Changed what? You have "My Servant Israel" who is "to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make you a light of the nations so that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth"(Isaiah 49:6), and you have Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim, who are known as "Israel" who are acting the harlot, and are like moving boundary lines (Hosea 5:10) and who will need to be "restored" by the "despised one", "My Servant, Israel", "after 2 days/2000 years (Hosea 6:2), on the 3rd day,after they have "acknowledge their guilt". God chose the nation of Israel, named after Jacob, and they rebelled, and are still under judgment (Hosea 5). It is not Jacob, who will restore "the preserved ones of Israel", it is the "despised one", My Servant, Israel, the right arm of the LORD who will restore Jacob.

Isaiah 53:1
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

John 12:38
This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
 
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