Dangers of emptiness/anatta?

[punkdbass]

Alright so this might appear to be a weird question but I tend to think about weird things. I know the Buddha promises happiness, peace, and fulfillment for those who understand emptiness/anatta. This might sound odd, but one of my underlying fears(and I must admit it's more of a minor fear right now, but it's something always in the back of my mind) is that experience of emptiness/anatta could lead to psychosis, depersonalization, loss of identity, and loss of touch with reality... essentially losing one's mind. I remember reading a book on Jewish mediation and the author presented a meditation on emptiness towards the end of the book but gave many warnings on how any spiritual activities that focus on "emptiness" should never be done without a teacher due to their danger. What are the dangers of meditation on emptiness? What precautions should be taken?

One of the books I'm reading right now actually briefly talks about this subject and how the author knew a guy that ended up getting a lot of psychotic episodes from his meditation practices and ended up having to give up meditation completely (I don't know the complete story, perhaps the guy had an underlying mental disorder to begin with). Anyways, the author's reasoning was that the people experiencing these negative effects are misunderstanding anatta. Essentially these people are clinging to the idea that everything is absolutely empty, and thus they lose touch with reality. But they are only seeing half the picture. Yes, everything is empty of inherent existence or nature, but yet we still exist. Yes, my true identity is empty of inherent existence but yet I still exist , you can have a conversation with me, we can go for a run, or eat lunch... these things are real. This is the paradox of existence - you are empty but yet you are real. Sure, a Bear is empty of inherent existence, but it still exists in a sense - if you ever have an encounter with a black bear growling right in front of your face, you'll probably understand that the experience is real.

So anyways, the point here is that the people who "lose there minds" while pursuing emptiness are only seeing half the picture. This is really hard to describe in words, but the best teaching I've found on the subject is this: "form is emptiness and emptiness is form." (nothing inherently exists) But you could also say, "form is form and emptiness is emptiness." (things relatively exist).

Maybe I'm just overthinking this, afterall, there are hundreds of thousands of Buddhists and most of them seem to be pretty healthy, there certainly doesnt seem to be a correlation between Buddhism and psychosis lol and science is starting to confirm the positive benefits of meditation and Buddhist practices. But perhaps there are certain individuals who have an easier ability to "open doors" in their perception, and for such individuals, mediation and experience of emptiness can be a dangerous thing. If this is the case, what precautions should one take who is pursuing a Buddhist path of experiencing emptiness? Like I said, this isn't a huge fear of mine but I guess I just want to get this off my chest.

 

[crossfire]

This wiki article on makyo might be of interest to you in this regard, especially when you contrast if to kensho. Many stuck in makyo mistake this state as being kensho.

Makyo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, you can make a conceptual nest out of emptiness. It's helpful to concentrate on the interconnectedness of all things, which shows that compounded phenomena are inherently empty. This interconnectedness helps one to experience kensho.

Kenshō

 

[Ekanta]

IMO, Zen master Taisen Deshimaru gave a good hint when he said that:
"When you let go of everything, you become others. That is abandoning the ego. Don't get it wrong."

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram punkdbass ji :namaste

Alright so this might appear to be a weird question but I tend to think about weird things. I know the Buddha promises happiness, peace, and fulfillment for those who understand emptiness/anatta. This might sound odd, but one of my underlying fears(and I must admit it's more of a minor fear right now, but it's something always in the back of my mind) is that experience of emptiness/anatta could lead to psychosis, depersonalization, loss of identity,

please dont think I am being flippant , but the identity that one is at risk of loosing is not ones true self but the illusion of the self , so all we stand to loose are the delusions of self , delusions of identity . so in truth there is nothing to loose !

if we loose these dellusions we awake to the true nature that lay beyond the illusiory self .

by doing this we realise Buddha nature

and loss of touch with reality... essentially losing one's mind.

loose touch with the missconception of reality and gain cognizance of true reality .

loose the limtations of conceptual mind and gain freedom of all knowing mind .

I remember reading a book on Jewish mediation and the author presented a meditation on emptiness towards the end of the book but gave many warnings on how any spiritual activities that focus on "emptiness" should never be done without a teacher due to their danger. What are the dangers of meditation on emptiness? What precautions should be taken?

he is right , without guidance we are likely to missunderstand emptiness and severely dammage ourselves buy adding confusion and fear instead of creating clarity .

One of the books I'm reading right now actually briefly talks about this subject and how the author knew a guy that ended up getting a lot of psychotic episodes from his meditation practices and ended up having to give up meditation completely (I don't know the complete story, perhaps the guy had an underlying mental disorder to begin with). Anyways, the author's reasoning was that the people experiencing these negative effects are misunderstanding anatta. Essentially these people are clinging to the idea that everything is absolutely empty, and thus they lose touch with reality. But they are only seeing half the picture. Yes, everything is empty of inherent existence or nature, but yet we still exist. Yes, my true identity is empty of inherent existence but yet I still exist , you can have a conversation with me, we can go for a run, or eat lunch... these things are real. This is the paradox of existence - you are empty but yet you are real. Sure, a Bear is empty of inherent existence, but it still exists in a sense - if you ever have an encounter with a black bear growling right in front of your face, you'll probably understand that the experience is real.

the idea of ''absolutely empty''comes from thinking that 'this' is full ... but this is the illusion , this is the temporary , infact this that we think is solid and real is the empty , here is only illusion , only ignorance , no solidity , this is temporay , this is imperminant , .....give up attatchment to 'this' (which must be done gradualy )and you will find the emptiness that we fear is in fact the true reality , it is the fullness , it is devoid of ignorance , it is devoid of illusion , therefore it is the fullness of knowledge , the fullness of truth.....and where 'this' (because of its imperminance) is marred by suffering , the emptiness is fully joyfull as it is free from the imperminance and delusion which is the cause of our pain and confusion .

So anyways, the point here is that the people who "lose there minds" while pursuing emptiness are only seeing half the picture. This is really hard to describe in words, but the best teaching I've found on the subject is this: "form is emptiness and emptiness is form." (nothing inherently exists) But you could also say, "form is form and emptiness is emptiness." (things relatively exist).

prehaps the people that loose their minds trying to understand emptiness go crazy because in stead of ariving at an understanding of emptiness by gentle progression through guidance and meditation , are insistant to force themselves to realisation , but instead force themselves and by so doing , intensify their attatchment to conditioned ideas of identity and self .

Maybe I'm just overthinking this, afterall, there are hundreds of thousands of Buddhists and most of them seem to be pretty healthy, there certainly doesnt seem to be a correlation between Buddhism and psychosis lol and science is starting to confirm the positive benefits of meditation and Buddhist practices. But perhaps there are certain individuals who have an easier ability to "open doors" in their perception, and for such individuals, mediation and experience of emptiness can be a dangerous thing. If this is the case, what precautions should one take who is pursuing a Buddhist path of experiencing emptiness? Like I said, this isn't a huge fear of mine but I guess I just want to get this off my chest.

dont worry , I am sure many of us have had these feelings at some point , but the important thing to remember is that lord buddha out of kindness left us a systemised path to follow and like all good things it should not be rushed or forced , take it one step at a time and all will come clear , but one word of warning , one who tries to take shortcuts and force himself too soon will cause himself unnecessary suffering and confusion .

Buddha nature is ever present but it needs to be carefully nurtured which means setting up the right conditions for realisation and slowly sweeping away the illusions and making way for the experience of knowledge .

 

[Windwalker]

It's not just a matter of emptiness that can confuse someone without some experienced person there to ground you, but all the states of meditation up to that. You first enter into the subconscious mind in low subtle states which can be compared to that of taking various mind altering drugs, such as LSD. What emerges is symbolic representations of the subconscious mind, repressions, anxieties, fears, etc., which may manifest themselves in any number of ways. The person has to have a relatively stable psyche to process this, as the mind may misinterpret these and lead to confusion, wrong ideas, incorrect signals, etc. Someone who suffers from depression should be careful or any other sort of mental disorder should only do so under guidance, if at all.

The high subtle states are archetypal in nature, which is not the lower natures, but the transcendent potentials of the unrealized, emergent Self in symbolic form. These too may be confusing if someone operating within the ego takes these delusionally, as if they are the coming messiah, or something (and go and start some religion in their name, of which there are many examples of modern time). Again, having a spotter, someone who can keep you grounded is advisable. And I will here disagree with Zen teachings that see these stages as inferior. That's like saying being 18 to 25 years old is inferior to being 26 to 35 years old. Ridiculous. To skip these leaves a gaping hole of development that you cannot get any other way than learning to know who you are IN those stages. State experiences are not the goal, but stages of growth are. States are easy, stages are not. You cannot skip stages, where you learn and integrate that before you can learn to stabilize the next stage. I digress.

As for the Casual states (Emptiness), there is likewise a low and high state. And the misnomer is that this is a blank. It is anything but that. But as others have said, it is a loss of self, indeed, but a discovery of the true Self, not the illusory self which is the thought constructs of the ego we identify as "me". It is through shedding this, we discover that the ego is not what defines us, but is a feature of the body as our knee caps are.

And then there is the nondual beyond this where emptiness is known in form, and form is known through emptiness; from the many to the One, and from the One to the many.

It is my belief the mind can be stabilized through meditation, far beyond the "normal" mind which is little more than anxious balancing acts trying to stay afloat in the currents of the world. But if someone is struggling for even that balance, they will need someone there to keep them grounded and in touch with earth before they go sailing off into a complete derailment.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think most of the "dangers" involve the (ego) monkey mind fighting frantically as things are conditioned through meditations to bring about calmness and clarity.

Something of which the mind, habitually accustomed to maintaing control, tends to furiously fight off the changes of which can be notably strenuous and extreme during the processes of calming and quieting, to a point, where ego unsettles and distresses a person enough to warrant notable concerns for some people to where control becomes increasingly unmanageable, primarily due to the mind fighting fiercely with itself, which in some cases could lead to serious issues. A teacher can guide students through such episodes if and when should the ego get to a point where it reinforces its dominance, by creating varying levels of instability that could be unmanageable without proper guidance or instruction prior to meditations.

 

[DreadFish]

I find your post humorously familiar. I think that anyone who decides to pursue Buddhism seriously can go through this. You could almost define it as a stage, IMO.

I remember when I really worried about that sort of thing and I even woke up feeling panicky and my mind reeling, trying to pull itself back into the normal perception of things. Anyway, I have the depression and anxiety and, as a result, a potentially neurotic personality, so I have experienced the anxious side of all these things when im not at my best.

I think I can safely say that this is a fear of losing identity issue; the world you live in is also your identity and losing it means losing part of your identity. Really trying to perceive emptiness and that sort of thing, I think can cause anxiety; there is an element of forcing things and that creates internal tension, especially at an earlier stage in practice. People can talk about it not being so bad, it's only a relative, false identity, but the actual experience of this being in the back of your mind for a while and facing it head on can be very stressful.

Anyway, IMO dont get too hung up on "emptiness"; trying to perceive it is probably counter productive. Just keep on truckin' with keeping lucidity and awareness, dont follow thoughts so much and observe the arising and ceasing of phenomena. When you dont try to get there and keep practicing in the now, there won't be so much of a fear of something stressful happening.

And remember, your "emptiness" and "anatta" are not the same thing as what they refer to.

 

[punkdbass]

Interesting, lot of great replies in this thread. Thanks guys!

I'm hoping this is just a "passing phase" that I will get through. I'll be conscious of not trying to force things - for as many said, this can end up negatively reinforcing things you already cling to. I'll try to tread the 8 fold path slowly and carefully, trying to let growth be as natural as possible.

And hopefully you are right DreadFish, that if I can keep practicing in the now, eventually I can get over these fears. I too suffer from depression and anxiety.. you said you can relate to my post a lot, was this an initial phase that you eventually worked through? Or is it something you still deal with? Just wondering.

 

[DreadFish]

And hopefully you are right DreadFish, that if I can keep practicing in the now, eventually I can get over these fears. I too suffer from depression and anxiety.. you said you can relate to my post a lot, was this an initial phase that you eventually worked through? Or is it something you still deal with? Just wondering.

I have worked through a great deal of it and yet I am still working through it on another level. One of the biggest things that has helped is just familiarity with the feelings and experiences associated with this. I also had a spontaneous experience where I "lost myself" and then experienced everything I thought I knew about everything dissolve into an ineffable nothing/fullness that is impossible to describe. As scary as it sounds, it was actually a huge relief, so I remind myself that, while passing through the threshold might be very terrifying, like dying, it really is the greatest relief on the other side.

So, I think there is definitely a stage that you will pass through as long as you dont linger, but you might experience similar fears along the way. It does get easier with persistence and a positive point-of-view.

 

[Ablaze]

Emptiness, properly understood, has no danger. Only when misinterpretted as either of the two extremes - eternalism or annihilationism - does it lead to a person's downfall. Nāgārjuna warned about this in his seminal work:

XXIV.11.
Emptiness, having been dimly perceived, utterly destroys the slow-witted.
It is like a snake wrongly grasped or magical knowledge incorrectly applied.

Mūlamadhyamakakārikā | मूलमध्यमककारिका

Just as mishandling a snake will inevitably lead to being bitten and eventually succumbing to the venom, trying to grasp emptiness by reifying it into a metaphysical absolute - either by what Nāgārjuna termed uccheda-vāda/dṛṣṭi (the doctrine of annihilationism - that nothing exists) or śāṣvata-/sassata-vāda/dṛṣṭi (the doctrine of eternalism - that a soul/God/substratum exists eternally) - leads to entanglement.

The fact of the matter is that śūnyatā is a very simple truth (of interdependent co-arising) that too many people become entangled in during their attempts to reify it.

 

[zenzero]

Friend punkdbass,

Dangers of emptiness/anatta?

(and I must admit it's more of a minor fear right now, but it's something always in the back of my mind)

The root of all problem is the MIND and since you are holding on to the MIND you are finding it difficult to LET GO!
Only by letting go of the MIND is one free to know what emptiness of the MIND is or what is 'ANATTA'.
Letting go is the practise, personally have no guru but still never had any problem; yes agree that the point of emptiness is just a fleeting kind but enough to be addicted for life as LIFE starts where the mind is empty.
JUMP and then THINK or else you may just miss the bus this time around.
Best Wishes!

Love & rgds

 

[DreadFish]

Good to see you again, zenzero

 

[ametist]

Yes, OP you are very much righ. Experience of emptiness is dangerous in a sense it shatters reality and may cause what we call psychosis. That experience of emptiness doesnt last long.human mind can not bear with it if it lasted long. I highly suspect then your psyche would receive permanant damage to put you in a hospital. I am sorry for saying that but such is my experience.

 

[Straw Dog]

Yes, there is a danger for some people with a tendency towards nihilism to fixate too much on their particular notion of emptiness in such a way that they begin to feel unreal, dissociated, and/or nonexistent. This is an example of grasping at an extremist or polarized view rather than developing a coherent understanding. Perhaps terms such as spaciousness and openness better convey the intended meaning in the English language. It is only an emptiness of an inherent self existing seperately from the greater system. The complementary concept of interdependent origination may help curtail nihilistic tendencies and better facilitate an intellectual understanding of the middle path. However, a consistent routine of meditation and contemplation still seems necessary to cultivate a more holistic understanding.

 

[DreadFish]

Yes, OP you are very much righ. Experience of emptiness is dangerous in a sense it shatters reality and may cause what we call psychosis. That experience of emptiness doesnt last long.human mind can not bear with it if it lasted long. I highly suspect then your psyche would receive permanant damage to put you in a hospital. I am sorry for saying that but such is my experience.

I dont think that this is an experience of emptiness.

Emptiness is just dependent origination, interdependence, the experience of nothing existing in and of itself but only in relation to other things. Here's the wiki talking about Nagarjuna's take on emptiness:

On the basis of the Buddha's view that all experienced phenomena (dharma) are "dependently arisen" (pratitya-samutpanna), Nagarjuna insisted that such phenomena are empty (sunya). This did not mean that they are not experienced and, therefore, non-existent; only that they are devoid of a permanent and eternal substance (svabhava). Since they are experienced elements of existence, they are not mere names (prjnapti).[23]

Also, something I read this morning in a Tich Naht Han book that made me think of your question, punkdbass. I will type some of it out to give you an idea of what he's talking about:

When they hear about emptiness, people are also very afraid, but emptiness just means the extinction of ideas. Emptiness is not the opposite of existence. It is not nothingness or annihilation. The idea of existence has to be removed and so does the idea of nonexistence. Emptiness is a tool to help us.
...
Not only does awakened insight remove the notion of permanence, but it also removes the notion of impermanence. The notion of emptiness is the same. Emptiness is an instrument, and if you are caught in the notion of emptiness you are lost. The Buddha said in the Ratnakuta Sutra: "If you are caught by the notion of being and non-being, then the notion of emptiness can help you to get free. But if you are caught by the notion of emptiness, there's no hope." The teaching on emptiness is a tool helping you to get the real insight of emptiness, but if you consider the tool as the insight, you just get caught in the idea.
If you have a notion about nirvana, that notion should be removed. Nirvana is empty of all notions, including the notion of nirvana.

It's from the book, no death, no fear. I just found a PDF of it here: http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Thich Nhat Hanh - No Death, No Fear.pdf

 

[zenzero]

Friend DF,

Guess your response

if you are caught in the notion of emptiness you are lost

is where ONE gets lost.
Cause that getting of that 'notion' is where the MIND is at work. The MIND is the EGO and one is back to the starting block.
Personal understanding points towards the space when the MIND is empty or free of THOUGHTS and one is fully aware of the IN going and OUT going of the breath.
[that is the practise am involved with]

Love & rgds

 

[ametist]

I dont think that this is an experience of emptiness.

Emptiness is just dependent origination, interdependence, the experience of nothing existing in and of itself but only in relation to other things. Here's the wiki talking about Nagarjuna's take on emptiness:




Also, something I read this morning in a Tich Naht Han book that made me think of your question, punkdbass. I will type some of it out to give you an idea of what he's talking about:



It's from the book, no death, no fear. I just found a PDF of it here: http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Thich Nhat Hanh - No Death, No Fear.pdf

Ermm. I dont know what to say.. I will say that it is and you will say you dont think so again.. untill we share the same experience.
What I want lastly to indicate is having an empty mind during a meditative state is not same with an experience of emptiness. I know both and your philosophy is derived out of the first.
I also respect all those monks who skip that part of experience because in and of itself after the pass it doesnt mean much.Afterall here I am writing what I can write, aint i?

 

[DreadFish]

Ermm. I dont know what to say.. I will say that it is and you will say you dont think so again.. untill we share the same experience.
What I want lastly to indicate is having an empty mind during a meditative state is not same with an experience of emptiness. I know both and your philosophy is derived out of the first.
I also respect all those monks who skip that part of experience because in and of itself after the pass it doesnt mean much.Afterall here I am writing what I can write, aint i?

Yeah, I dont equate emptiness with having an empty mind. I have days where my mind is mostly blank with a passing thought here and there, but that hasn't changed the fact that I still live in a world of mostly solid "things".

Of course, I dont know the content of your experience, but I can't imagine that experiencing the interdependence of the way things are would induce psychosis. I could see that maybe happening on the way to experiencing interdependence. When I experienced all things inexplicably dissolving into nothingness/undefinable fullness, it was the most relieving experience of my life. I suppose that there's a point where a mind isn't ready, but I do believe the mind has the potential to be capable of sustaining such an experience.

 

[ametist]

Yeah, I dont equate emptiness with having an empty mind. I have days where my mind is mostly blank with a passing thought here and there, but that hasn't changed the fact that I still live in a world of mostly solid "things".

Of course, I dont know the content of your experience, but I can't imagine that experiencing the interdependence of the way things are would induce psychosis. I could see that maybe happening on the way to experiencing interdependence. When I experienced all things inexplicably dissolving into nothingness/undefinable fullness, it was the most relieving experience of my life. I suppose that there's a point where a mind isn't ready, but I do believe the mind has the potential to be capable of sustaining such an experience.

'interdependence' of what in an experience of emptiness? What 'things' you are talking about in emptiness?
Think of the whole thing like a ladder. You go step by step and at the end you are 'sucked into' it like you have activated a trigger with the first step of that ladder. In the previous steps sense of time begins to detoriate, identity is lost and and is switched around in a net of persons where you are different people with different languages and emotions and imagine the turmoil. The other is seeing people from different time periods in your actual environment..anatomical details on human body..persona of living great teacher, book closing..last step (emptiness)is less than a second perhaps but its partial memory is allowed to stay nonetheless. Complete darkness which itself is not darkness and no thing. unplugged.-memory loss- thought of 'what am i?' induced. A push of rage, a flash of light, a break, tiniest form of matter reemerges -memory loss- and breath.
Anyway. You can write a twelve volume book out of this, naming some part of it as 'interdependence of way things are' or as 'psychosis' but you can do both only later. During the experience you and all that you know as reality is gone. The OP asked if it is all the way pleasant and my answer is 'no' because losing your self and discovering that interdependence beyond philosophical level is no easy play.

 

[DreadFish]

'interdependence' of what in an experience of emptiness? What 'things' you are talking about in emptiness?
Think of the whole thing like a ladder. You go step by step and at the end you are 'sucked into' it like you have activated a trigger with the first step of that ladder. In the previous steps sense of time begins to detoriate, identity is lost and and is switched around in a net of persons where you are different people with different languages and emotions and imagine the turmoil. The other is seeing people from different time periods in your actual environment..anatomical details on human body..persona of living great teacher, book closing..last step (emptiness)is less than a second perhaps but its partial memory is allowed to stay nonetheless. Complete darkness which itself is not darkness and no thing. unplugged.-memory loss- thought of 'what am i?' induced. A push of rage, a flash of light, a break, tiniest form of matter reemerges -memory loss- and breath.
Anyway. You can write a twelve volume book out of this, naming some part of it as 'interdependence of way things are' or as 'psychosis' but you can do both only later. During the experience you and all that you know as reality is gone. The OP asked if it is all the way pleasant and my answer is 'no' because losing your self and discovering that interdependence beyond philosophical level is no easy play.

I think we might have a bit of misunderstanding. Im not saying that there are any actual "things" in emptiness. I guess im just using the word interdependence because "emptiness" often evokes a sense of a vacuum. I currently understand interdependence to mean that "things" appear to be there because of the kaleidoscopic patterns that take place in reality.

I just mean to say that I dont believe there is any danger in the actual experience, as that is what the OP asked. The threshold certainly has the potential of being very terrifying, I agree with you there, but in the experience I had, after the fear of myelf and my world being sucked away from me passed, there was instantly the most all-encompassing peace and total love and wholeness that I have ever experienced, and the experience of all "things" dissolving into inexplicable nothingness/fullness and learning that nothing, not even tables and lamps, exists was the most relieving thing I had ever felt.
It seems like living in a world of concrete, solid "things" is a very stressful experience. A good description for part of the experience is a word that the Wanderling used: "dark luminosity".

But, I certainly acknowledge that not everyone experiences the same thing.