• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Daily good: Does The Mind Exist During Our Sleep?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Wisdom Wednesdays: Does The Mind Exist During Our Sleep? by Annamalai Swami

"Every time you go to sleep you have the experience of being without a mind. You cannot deny that you exist while you are asleep and you cannot deny that your mind is not functioning while you are in dreamless sleep. This daily experience should convince you that it is possible to continue your existence without a mind. Of course, you do not have the experience of full consciousness while you are asleep, but if you think about what happens during this state you should come to understand that your existence, the continuity of your being, is in no way dependent on your mind or your identification with it. When the mind reappears every morning you instantly jump to the conclusion, ‘This is the real me.’

If you reflect on this proposition for some time you will see how absurd it is. If you really only exist when the mind is present, you have to accept that you didn’t exist while you were asleep. No one will accept such an absurd conclusion. If you analyze your alternating states you will discover that it is your direct experience that you exist whether you are awake or asleep. You will also discover that the mind only becomes active while you are waking or dreaming. Does The Mind Exist During Our Sleep?, by Annamalai Swami (Full article)

Enjoy
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think I have a 'direct experience' of existing while I am asleep. I realize I *existed* while I was asleep once I awaken.

Also, what exists while I am asleep is not my consciousness, but rather my body and subconscious processing of information.

This is a problem for those who identify themselves with their mind or consciousness, but not for those who consider the whole organism (body, brain, mind) to be them.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Wisdom Wednesdays: Does The Mind Exist During Our Sleep? by Annamalai Swami

"Every time you go to sleep you have the experience of being without a mind. You cannot deny that you exist while you are asleep and you cannot deny that your mind is not functioning while you are in dreamless sleep. This daily experience should convince you that it is possible to continue your existence without a mind. Of course, you do not have the experience of full consciousness while you are asleep, but if you think about what happens during this state you should come to understand that your existence, the continuity of your being, is in no way dependent on your mind or your identification with it. When the mind reappears every morning you instantly jump to the conclusion, ‘This is the real me.’

If you reflect on this proposition for some time you will see how absurd it is. If you really only exist when the mind is present, you have to accept that you didn’t exist while you were asleep. No one will accept such an absurd conclusion. If you analyze your alternating states you will discover that it is your direct experience that you exist whether you are awake or asleep. You will also discover that the mind only becomes active while you are waking or dreaming. Does The Mind Exist During Our Sleep?, by Annamalai Swami (Full article)

Enjoy
the mind doesn't cease to exist. it ceases creating thoughts. its like the sky, heavens. the heavens, sky doesn't cease to exist just because something arises from the space
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I suspect the mind does more when we are asleep than when we are awake - tidying up, relating information, deleting stuff, solving problems, etc. - so I sure hope it isn't just fooling us and on the skive (being bone idle). :oops:
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Wisdom Wednesdays: Does The Mind Exist During Our Sleep? by Annamalai Swami

"Every time you go to sleep you have the experience of being without a mind. You cannot deny that you exist while you are asleep and you cannot deny that your mind is not functioning while you are in dreamless sleep. This daily experience should convince you that it is possible to continue your existence without a mind. Of course, you do not have the experience of full consciousness while you are asleep, but if you think about what happens during this state you should come to understand that your existence, the continuity of your being, is in no way dependent on your mind or your identification with it. When the mind reappears every morning you instantly jump to the conclusion, ‘This is the real me.’

If you reflect on this proposition for some time you will see how absurd it is. If you really only exist when the mind is present, you have to accept that you didn’t exist while you were asleep. No one will accept such an absurd conclusion. If you analyze your alternating states you will discover that it is your direct experience that you exist whether you are awake or asleep. You will also discover that the mind only becomes active while you are waking or dreaming. Does The Mind Exist During Our Sleep?, by Annamalai Swami (Full article)

Enjoy
Well it stands to reason that there would need to be something existing in order to enable the mind at all.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I don't know about this part:

"you cannot deny that your mind is not functioning while you are in dreamless sleep"

I highly doubt that "dreamless sleep" is truly "dreamless." I have a feeling that dreams are ongoing as a part of brain function, but that you can only be aware of them when your consciousness isn't more shut down. However, I would argue that the consciousness (i.e. continuum of awareness) is NEVER fully shut down. Otherwise, how could one possibly explain the fact that I can be roused from even the deepest possible sleep by an outcry from my child, and yet completely ignore the sounds of the trains that pass by and blare their horns in the night within 150 feet of our house?

And, obviously (to me anyway, given my experience, which I can only guess is much the same as everyone else's), it works on a sort of "sliding scale" or like a dimmer switch. Where you can be less conscious of what is going on in your brain, or more conscious - to the point that you can actually remember parts of dreams that your conscious mind had no part in conjuring the thoughts for, or you might remember none of it. In fact, I have had situations arise where I distinctly remember being conscious of a dream just after it occurred, went back to sleep and couldn't remember a lick of it when I fully awoke.

So, I don't feel there is ever a time when the "mind" is not there, working in some capacity.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know about this part:

"you cannot deny that your mind is not functioning while you are in dreamless sleep"

I highly doubt that "dreamless sleep" is truly "dreamless." I have a feeling that dreams are ongoing as a part of brain function, but that you can only be aware of them when your consciousness isn't more shut down. However, I would argue that the consciousness (i.e. continuum of awareness) is NEVER fully shut down. Otherwise, how could one possibly explain the fact that I can be roused from even the deepest possible sleep by an outcry from my child, and yet completely ignore the sounds of the trains that pass by and blare their horns in the night within 150 feet of our house?

And, obviously (to me anyway, given my experience, which I can only guess is much the same as everyone else's), it works on a sort of "sliding scale" or like a dimmer switch. Where you can be less conscious of what is going on in your brain, or more conscious - to the point that you can actually remember parts of dreams that your conscious mind had no part in conjuring the thoughts for, or you might remember none of it. In fact, I have had situations arise where I distinctly remember being conscious of a dream just after it occurred, went back to sleep and couldn't remember a lick of it when I fully awoke.

So, I don't feel there is ever a time when the "mind" is not there, working in some capacity.

I see a difference between the brain processing information and being conscious. To awaken from sleep only requires the first. Then you transition from unconsciousness to consciousness..

But I see there being a scale going from sensitivity (which all life shows) to awareness (which requires a brain) to consciousness (frontal lobes seem important here to self consciousness (theory of mind). In dreamless sleep, there is some awareness, but not consciousness.

I very seldom remember even having dreamt, let alone dream contents. I have probably remembered my dreams fewer than a couple dozen times in 57 years. I remember having dreamt about once or twice a year.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I see a difference between the brain processing information and being conscious. To awaken from sleep only requires the first. Then you transition from unconsciousness to consciousness..

But I see there being a scale going from sensitivity (which all life shows) to awareness (which requires a brain) to consciousness (frontal lobes seem important here to self consciousness (theory of mind). In dreamless sleep, there is some awareness, but not consciousness.

I very seldom remember even having dreamt, let alone dream contents. I have probably remembered my dreams fewer than a couple dozen times in 57 years. I remember having dreamt about once or twice a year.
I would still posit that the consciousness is there and acting in some form, even if that is a sort of "idle" mode. Because in the example I gave (true to life), whatever awareness is active while I am asleep is able to kick-start my consciousness into full working order in moments if it is the cry of my child that reaches my ears, and again - this is even from within the deepest of sleep. My brain is also completely discerning between types of noises, because, as stated, even louder noises like the train blaring its horn (we live right by an intersection which is maybe 400 feet away, so in one direction the horns are being blared directly in front of our house) do not cause me to stir in the slightest. The trains go by all through the night - at least 40 in a 24 hours period, and they don't stop even in the early hours of the morning. So even if in some form of "idle" mode, the consciousness is at the ready. I just think it is a bit hyperbolic to definitively state that "the mind is not functioning."
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I would still posit that the consciousness is there and acting in some form, even if that is a sort of "idle" mode. Because in the example I gave (true to life), whatever awareness is active while I am asleep is able to kick-start my consciousness into full working order in moments if it is the cry of my child that reaches my ears, and again - this is even from within the deepest of sleep. My brain is also completely discerning between types of noises, because, as stated, even louder noises like the train blaring its horn (we live right by an intersection which is maybe 400 feet away, so in one direction the horns are being blared directly in front of our house) do not cause me to stir in the slightest. The trains go by all through the night - at least 40 in a 24 hours period, and they don't stop even in the early hours of the morning. So even if in some form of "idle" mode, the consciousness is at the ready. I just think it is a bit hyperbolic to definitively state that "the mind is not functioning."

And it seems to be dependent on exactly what we call the 'mind' versus 'consciousness' versus 'awareness', etc. So, what, precisely, is the 'mind'? is it necessarily conscious? And, for that matter, what is 'consciousness'? Is it different than awareness? Reactivity? The ability to be stimulated?

I would not call the discernment that the brain does while asleep 'consciousness'. The 'light bulb' is not on. The switch is still there and can be flicked when required, but I consider the 'lit light bulb' to be consciousness. In deep sleep, the switch is turned off, but can be turned on when more basic processes determine it needs to be.

Now, is there a certain level of processing being done? Absolutely. The question seems to be how to label the different levels of processing. And, the difference for me is whether experiences are had as opposed to simply being able to respond. In my mind, the processing done during deep sleep is NOT consciousness, but rather the ability to be stimulated and comes with some minimal ability to differentiate novel from other sensory input.
 
Top