Cult Psychology (amateur) Studies

[David T]

Firstly, Abraham was not a Jew. He was a Hebrew. Jews were descendants of Judah and after that Judaism got applied to all Isarelites.

Now that that is out of the way....

Your post is FUNNY!

I think L Ron Hubbard is actually quoted as saying something similar about starting a religion. He would rather take advantage of fools than be a fool himself.

Thank god i am not a hebrew. Oh wait!!!
Details!!lol

Thats a sociopath. I am a sociopath the term isnt broad enough.
In a sense that really is the star wars story. Which joseph campbell plays a major role in developing with george lucas. That guy is interesting.

I hace a very i

Firstly, Abraham was not a Jew. He was a Hebrew. Jews were descendants of Judah and after that Judaism got applied to all Isarelites.

Now that that is out of the way....

Your post is FUNNY!

I think L Ron Hubbard is actually quoted as saying something similar about starting a religion. He would rather take advantage of fools than be a fool himself.

Ha. Ok now i have to rethink every thing!!

Yes to religion has a variety of sociopaths from the sublime to scoundrel. I might say its the jedi vs the sith!
I say you get to make one real decision in life. If ya pick wrong, well you will figure it out maybe that was wrong and thus there really was originally only one decision! Nature does play fair. Its actually fairly simple we are very very simple creatures. Cant make it more difficult than it already is. My god we struggle with that. Christianity has been working on love for 2000 years. One damn word thats it...omg what if there were more than that! Some day we might move along to justice. To deep of a topic for us right now.

Ok enough foolery.
Alliance for Wild Ethics

This guy you need to pay close attention to. He is jewish he is a rather interesting cat very very wild wilderness type. Very outdoors type. I dont know if you knew this but a long time ago jewish people actually were kind of out doors types. They went on a 40 year hike apparently said screw that no more outdoors cities we need cities!!

Dacids focus is the linkage between oral and written tradition. I stumbled onto his book. I was trying to see and experience that transition and he goes right into breathe of god. He made personal link for me with that. To inspire to breathe into. It was a bit of magic for me. I could then vegin to see the stories from an der pre literate world being written much much later.
David actually is a real mystic extremely clear headed. And he makes no claim to be a mystic no actual mystic is that dumb. Such a stupid word. It just means wierdo! Davids a wierdo in the right way.

 

[Jim]

But if former members cannot genuinely criticize the faith without being shunned, which is illogical, then that is a problem.

There are well known former members who have criticized the faith for many years without being shunned.

I’m trying to find out if you think that the Baha’i Faith qualifies as a dangerous cult. If I’m right, if it’s true that the leaders have forbidden the members to associate with some people that they have named, is that enough for you to say that it’s a dangerous cult?

But, then again, would the Bahai'i engage with non Bahai'i who has received potentially damning information from an ex- Bahai'i?

I don’t see any prohibition against it.

And what qualifies as a "malicious attack?"

That would be for the world council to decide.

I have no problem with books being approved by leaders in order to publish it on the religions site. That is why I asked the question:

"So even if the book isn't included in the Bahai'i collection, are Bahai'i still allowed to read the book without consequences?"

There are two separate issues. There was an incident where a document was excluded from a collection, because someone thought that the House of Justice disapproved of it. I only know of that one incident, but I don’t know of anything that would keep it from happening more than once. What I said about approval of books is a separate issue from that. There is a policy that all books about the faith, written by members, need to be approved by a national spiritual assembly before they are published, no matter who the publisher is.

If it’s true that the leaders have forbidden the members to associate with some people that they have named, is that enough for you to say that it’s a dangerous cult?

 

[Samael_Khan]

There are well known former members who have criticized the faith for many years without being shunned.

I’m trying to find out if you think that the Baha’i Faith qualifies as a dangerous cult. If I’m right, if it’s true that the leaders have forbidden the members to associate with some people that they have named, is that enough for you to say that it’s a dangerous cult?

I don’t see any prohibition against it.

That would be for the world council to decide.

There are two separate issues. There was an incident where a document was excluded from a collection, because someone thought that the House of Justice disapproved of it. I only know of that one incident, but I don’t know of anything that would keep it from happening more than once. What I said about approval of books is a separate issue from that. There is a policy that all books about the faith, written by members, need to be approved by a national spiritual assembly before they are published, no matter who the publisher is.

If it’s true that the leaders have forbidden the members to associate with some people that they have named, is that enough for you to say that it’s a dangerous cult?

I don't know much about the Bahai'i first of all. So I cannot give you a straight answer as of yet.

But from what you are saying and what the brief intro research I have found is saying it seems like you guys do not have a black and white view of things and the shunning situation is definitely way more nuanced than all the dangerous cults I know of.

From what I have researched, in the Bahai'i freedom of choice is maintained because a person can come and go as they please without being shunned, which undermines dangerous cults. Also the group recognizes and understands when a person has joined the group with a poor understanding of what the faith entails.

And my conclusion also depends on what the Council Classifies as malicious attacks.

I need to ask further questions to clarify:

Do the leaders make aware address, or allow followers to explore and address, alternative views to Bahai'i and criticisms against it? Are they comfortable with Criticism?

If say for instance, I find a child abuse issue among the group and the leaders, and speak out against it, would I be classified as a covenant-breaker?

 

[Jim]

Do the leaders make aware address, or allow followers to explore and address, alternative views to Bahai'i and criticisms against it? Are they comfortable with Criticism?

It would surprise me if there aren’t some times when leaders try to use their influence to repress some views or criticisms. I’ve seen some things happen that looked like that to me, for example in the incident with that one document that I told you about.

If say for instance, I find a child abuse issue among the group and the leaders, and speak out against it, would I be classified as a covenant-breaker?

All I can say is that it would surprise me very much.

I’ll try approaching this a different way. I’m sure that somewhere in every organization, and in every institution of society, there is some undue influence happening, with some harmful consequences. What value do you see in labeling some of them as “dangerous cults”? How do you measure all the different kinds of harm they do, what formula do you use to label some of them as “dangerous cults,” and for what purposes? How does that benefit anyone?

(edit) Also, different people might be vulnerable to different influences. An organization might be dangerous for a few people, but not for most others. I could see some possible value in providing some kind of analysis of risk factors for each organization based on stories of people whose lives have been damaged, but not in some list of “dangerous cults.” (end edit)

 

[Jim]

@Israel Khan It looks to me like the undue influence of governments, global corporations and all the institutions of society including public education, is doing a lot more harm to a lot more people, than what all the organizations that you might call “dangerous cults,” combined, could be doing. It might be a better use of your interests and capacities to find ways to help fortify people against those influences, and reduce and counteract their harmful effects.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It would surprise me if there aren’t some times when leaders try to use their influence to repress some views or criticisms. I’ve seen some things happen that looked like that to me, for example in the incident with that one document that I told you about.

Agreed. Therefore just because one rogue person tries to suppress criticism, doesn't mean that the whole group is like that.

I’m sure that somewhere in every organization, and in every institution of society, there is some undue influence happening, with some harmful consequences.

Agreed. I am not referring to rogue individuals within a group, but if undue influence

What value do you see in labeling some of them as “dangerous cults”?
How do you measure all the different kinds of harm they do, what formula do you use to label some of them as “dangerous cults,” and for what purposes? How does that benefit anyone?

This is the heart of the issue actually. It helps to solve these questions: Why do seemingly normal and often intelligent people join groups in which they end up killing others, abusing others, prevent certain medical treatment which might save their childs life, break up families, and other destructive behaviour? Why do they follow their leader even though he/she/they oppresses others, hurts others psychologically and physically, forces the members to engage in obscene sexual acts, such as child abuse? Why do they see the behaviour mentioned in the last two questions as the right thing to do or God's will? Why are various psychological problems common in these groups and not others? Examining a group and identifying it as a cult according to the criteria, helps to prevent people from joining groups which are dangerous to themselves and the society around them. These questions above are why I personally started investigating dangerous cults.

Examples of cults:
6 of the most infamous cults in history

Groups the Government considers as cults, some are not dangerous:
Governmental lists of cults and sects - Wikipedia

(edit) Also, different people might be vulnerable to different influences. An organization might be dangerous for a few people, but not for most others. I could see some possible value in providing some kind of analysis of risk factors for each organization based on stories of people whose lives have been damaged, but not in some list of “dangerous cults.” (end edit)

Well, most of the time, people investigate a group as a cult because people who were in the group are saying that it harmed them. When they are investigated enough, they could be classified as a dangerous cult.

I am sure that everyone would agree that a group that somehow gets its members to commit suicide is dangerous (Peoples Temples) and thus should be placed on a cult list.

Also, there are common traits amongst dangerous cult groups and these patterns cannot be ignored. Having researched many cults, often they start off benign and then gradually become more extreme, and the tell tale signs can be seen in the benign stage. The People's Temple for instance started off benign and then Jim Jones somehow got his followers to commit suicide. That is a common pattern.

By the way, thanks very much for your questions. They are very helpful and thought provoking. Keep it up.

 

[Samael_Khan]

@Israel Khan It looks to me like the undue influence of governments, global corporations and all the institutions of society including public education, is doing a lot more harm to a lot more people, than what all the organizations that you might call “dangerous cults,” combined, could be doing. It might be a better use of your interests and capacities to find ways to help fortify people against those influences, and reduce and counteract their harmful effects.

And you would be 100% correct in that. One reason why many people do not like Steve Hassan's model is that it is "too broad" which in fact means that it even incriminates the methods of governments, education, marketing etc. In fact, being a graphic designer, I know for a fact that advertising uses undue influence to sway people to a certain view.

Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Soviet Russia, and currently North Korea are obvious examples of dangerous cult countries.

It was apparent to me even before studying cults that governments and other institutions use undue influence. Hopefully, studying dangerous cults and their methods, will open peoples eyes to how they themselves are manipulated by society in general. But also, governments aren't as extreme for the most part as individual dangerous cult groups. And I cannot ignore these small groups which do not have constitutions and the law to protect members, which countries have to protect citizens.

Very good point though.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thank god i am not a hebrew. Oh wait!!!
Details!!lol

Thats a sociopath. I am a sociopath the term isnt broad enough.
In a sense that really is the star wars story. Which joseph campbell plays a major role in developing with george lucas. That guy is interesting.

To this day I have never read a Joseph Campbell book. Sad.

Yes to religion has a variety of sociopaths from the sublime to scoundrel. I might say its the jedi vs the sith!
I say you get to make one real decision in life. If ya pick wrong, well you will figure it out maybe that was wrong and thus there really was originally only one decision! Nature does play fair. Its actually fairly simple we are very very simple creatures. Cant make it more difficult than it already is. My god we struggle with that. Christianity has been working on love for 2000 years. One damn word thats it...omg what if there were more than that! Some day we might move along to justice. To deep of a topic for us right now.

Narcisisists seem to start religions. They believe that God has a mission for them and that everyone else must. Hence the common patterns amongst founding members of certain religions and cults. It is sad when one makes a decision in life, and decades later realises that that choice was based on a lie. Sad. And yeah, humans are social sociopaths who struggle to get along because of their tribal mentality.

Ok enough foolery.
Alliance for Wild Ethics

This guy you need to pay close attention to. He is jewish he is a rather interesting cat very very wild wilderness type. Very outdoors type. I dont know if you knew this but a long time ago jewish people actually were kind of out doors types. They went on a 40 year hike apparently said screw that no more outdoors cities we need cities!!

Dacids focus is the linkage between oral and written tradition. I stumbled onto his book. I was trying to see and experience that transition and he goes right into breathe of god. He made personal link for me with that. To inspire to breathe into. It was a bit of magic for me. I could then vegin to see the stories from an der pre literate world being written much much later.
David actually is a real mystic extremely clear headed. And he makes no claim to be a mystic no actual mystic is that dumb. Such a stupid word. It just means wierdo! Davids a wierdo in the right way.

Cool site and I like the guys motives.

Yeah, the Jews went on a 40 years hike in a circle because they complained too much.

There is a big link between oral word and written word. All the Abrahamic religions started off orally and then wrote the oral tradition down. The oral word required a community to work, therefore it strengthened community. The written word doesn't require community for it to work therefore it doesn't strengthen community so much.

 

[David T]

To this day I have never read a Joseph Campbell book. Sad.

Narcisisists seem to start religions. They believe that God has a mission for them and that everyone else must. Hence the common patterns amongst founding members of certain religions and cults. It is sad when one makes a decision in life, and decades later realises that that choice was based on a lie. Sad. And yeah, humans are social sociopaths who struggle to get along because of their tribal mentality.

Cool site and I like the guys motives.

Yeah, the Jews went on a 40 years hike in a circle because they complained too much.

There is a big link between oral word and written word. All the Abrahamic religions started off orally and then wrote the oral tradition down. The oral word required a community to work, therefore it strengthened community. The written word doesn't require community for it to work therefore it doesn't strengthen community so much.

"Narcisisists seem to start religions."

Thats true if we allow that everyone is! I cant say narrcissists start science but its filled with narrcissists! They love to point out sin, defect, sin, defect, sin, defect!!! Two people one snake. It does not understand love.

Birth defects interesting small word. Unicorns are more real than birth defects. Go outside look into the sky and fimd me a defective cloud, i will look for a unicorn. Ooops i ein no defects but i saw a unicorn up there turned into mickey mouse, then donald duck oh...i see many people tortured and killed becsuse they were seen to be defective. My daughter as well. Oh i say to those bozos, she is not defective no such thing your defect, sin, defect, sin, defect, sin, its in your eye ya idiot blinding you there was a great jew who saw that, and ya killed him because he saw.i did too all do nkt just jews but christians and the whole pack. All are guilty all are forgiven. That jew was a jew forever only a narrcisisst would claim otherwise. I see him right ther walking with my daughter infact!

Now get back to me do ya see unicorns or do ya see defective clouds!

I just collapsed the inaanimate into the animate no gap. Create gap and now you are an imtelligent design fantasy fan just like that. No gap cloud perfect in what it is no defective cloud no defective daughter. She is sin defect free. We are the ones who have the vision problem. Thst jew saw that with sharp sharp eye clarity.

Lovely isnt she. Her name is ryann. Look through her eyes she sees no sin she sees no defect. As they wheel her off to die with the 6 million. I see perfection and i fully see narrcissism and where it starts. Dacid abram is on the right track get with it. Jew ya got work to do. Understand me now? A jew is a jew is a jew no matter what a jew wants to believe. That one jew never ever ever ever was anything that. But narrcisism crept and crawled into the world, and spoke "are you them" and they said oh no we are nit them we believe we are christians" and jesus said"thank god i am jesus and not a christian"

I am just like st. john muir. Lovely little flower aint she!!! I say saint john, he changed our perceptions of the landscape, and thats what i am here do. Got work plenty of work if ya are interested in that kind of work. I am a big naturist hiker going out this morning actually to my mountain. Fresh air and perfection visit.

 

[Samael_Khan]

"Narcisisists seem to start religions."

Thats true if we allow that everyone is! I cant say narrcissists start science but its filled with narrcissists! They love to point out sin, defect, sin, defect, sin, defect!!! Two people one snake. It does not understand love.

Birth defects interesting small word. Unicorns are more real than birth defects. Go outside look into the sky and fimd me a defective cloud, i will look for a unicorn. Ooops i ein no defects but i saw a unicorn up there turned into mickey mouse, then donald duck oh...i see many people tortured and killed becsuse they were seen to be defective. My daughter as well. Oh i say to those bozos, she is not defective no such thing your defect, sin, defect, sin, defect, sin, its in your eye ya idiot blinding you there was a great jew who saw that, and ya killed him because he saw.i did too all do nkt just jews but christians and the whole pack. All are guilty all are forgiven. That jew was a jew forever only a narrcisisst would claim otherwise. I see him right ther walking with my daughter infact!

Now get back to me do ya see unicorns or do ya see defective clouds!

I just collapsed the inaanimate into the animate no gap. Create gap and now you are an imtelligent design fantasy fan just like that. No gap cloud perfect in what it is no defective cloud no defective daughter. She is sin defect free. We are the ones who have the vision problem. Thst jew saw that with sharp sharp eye clarity.

Lovely isnt she. Her name is ryann. Look through her eyes she sees no sin she sees no defect. As they wheel her off to die with the 6 million. I see perfection and i fully see narrcissism and where it starts. Dacid abram is on the right track get with it. Jew ya got work to do. Understand me now? A jew is a jew is a jew no matter what a jew wants to believe. That one jew never ever ever ever was anything that. But narrcisism crept and crawled into the world, and spoke "are you them" and they said oh no we are nit them we believe we are christians" and jesus said"thank god i am jesus and not a christian"

I am just like st. john muir. Lovely little flower aint she!!! I say saint john, he changed our perceptions of the landscape, and thats what i am here do. Got work plenty of work if ya are interested in that kind of work. I am a big naturist hiker going out this morning actually to my mountain. Fresh air and perfection visit.
View attachment 31155

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't it? It is all a matter of perception. If one sees the bad they will see the bad. To enrich another's life, focus on the good. One man's "defect" is another's treasure.

I have a cousin who people see as "defective". We grew up together. Other people think that he is dumb because of the way he speaks, but if you listen to him then he speaks more sense than most. I have great conversations with him, better conversations than with most "more intelligent" people.

I remember Jesus touching a Leper whereas tradition said that people must stand a distance away from the leper at all times. Jesus was the first person to treat him as a human in years.

Is the picture of Ryann your daughter?

 

[David T]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't it.


Sure my daughter is either butt ugly defective mess of a sad pitiful dysfunction of genetics or she has zero defects and is perfect in who she is like a cloud. WHAT IS THAT!
One is reality the other fantasy.
So yes it depends on me.II pick fact the other is fiction. Unicorns are more real. But we are grand less real than unicorn chasers thats a fact too.
.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't it.


Sure my daughter is either butt ugly defective mess of a sad pitiful dysfunction of genetics or she has zero defects and is perfect in who she is like a cloud. WHAT IS THAT!
One is reality the other fantasy.
So yes it depends on me.II pick fact the other is fiction. Unicorns are more real. But we are grand less real than unicorn chasers thats a fact too.
. View attachment 31219

The reality is: We all have faults.

Reality: We cannot have selective sight and ignore clear genetic faults otherwise those faults might lead to someones death if it is severe enough.

Choice: We overlook those faults if those aren't personality faults.

When I look at your daughter I see a human being who has emotions and feelings. I would treat her like I treat anyone else.

.....

Sometimes I wonder whether I chase unicorns...

 

[David T]

The reality is: We all have faults.

Reality: We cannot have selective sight and ignore clear genetic faults otherwise those faults might lead to someones death if it is severe enough.

Choice: We overlook those faults if those aren't personality faults.

When I look at your daughter I see a human being who has emotions and feelings. I would treat her like I treat anyone else.

.....

Sometimes I wonder whether I chase unicorns...

Unicorns go sit in the kiddies section you are not god. Till ya figure iut sonny facts. No defective cloud no defective child period. Got it.... Reality.

Now differnces not faults in humans. She is physically fault defect sin evil bad all the piles of bs garbage ya wanna pile on that go right ahead. I am a sxientist minded person and christ the baggage here is annoying me.

She has physical issues not flaws we are lookimg at. They make who she is what she is. If we bias there we fail to see clearly as a scientist.
6 million dead right there because they had flaws? Defects? Please.
Thats exactly how hitler saw it i say wrong answer. DEEP psychology here.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Unicorns go sit in the kiddies section you are not god. Till ya figure iut sonny facts. No defective cloud no defective child period. Got it.... Reality.

Now differnces not faults in humans. She is physically fault defect sin evil bad all the piles of bs garbage ya wanna pile on that go right ahead. I am a sxientist minded person and christ the baggage here is annoying me.

She has physical issues not flaws we are lookimg at. They make who she is what she is. If we bias there we fail to see clearly as a scientist.
6 million dead right there because they had flaws? Defects? Please.
Thats exactly how hitler saw it i say wrong answer. DEEP psychology here.

I think I get what you are trying to say now:

The words we use matter. Saying someone is defective could lead to someone saying that they aren't meant to be here or that it is right to destroy them. It can be used as a derogatory term and apply to the whole person thus justifying the killing of that person.

So it is peoples interpretation of words? Certain words could lead to certain viewpoints which are negative?

 

[David T]

I think I get what you are trying to say now:

The words we use matter. Saying someone is defective could lead to someone saying that they aren't meant to be here or that it is right to destroy them. It can be used as a derogatory term and apply to the whole person thus justifying the killing of that person.

So it is peoples interpretation of words? Certain words could lead to certain viewpoints which are negative?

Now you are starting to understand. Yes. Very very very important. A mountin of crap can be built on the tiniest bump.. And then use the term science to justify it. Where is the confusion... The outcome action seen or way way back in the head and that can be over hundreds of years. No culture is exempt.

Sorry about bringing the 6 million into it i needed you to actually feel it you were thinking.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Now you are starting to understand. Yes. Very very very important. A mountin of crap can be built on the tiniest bump.. And then use the term science to justify it. Where is the confusion... The outcome action seen or way way back in the head and that can be over hundreds of years. No culture is exempt.

Sorry about bringing the 6 million into it i needed you to actually feel it you were thinking.

The 6 million reference actually helped me to understand. What you are saying makes sense.

 

[David T]

The 6 million reference actually helped me to understand. What you are saying makes sense.

The heart is funny isnt it. I kicked ya right there and you saw. For me i see my daughter with them, rolled along not a clue to whats coming as they roll her into the gas chambers. Defect one word is all it is. There it sits untouched unfelt unrealized. Look to the clouds no defect look at the 6 million one big defect by no fault of their own. We have a monster in the bushes you see it now. Oh and killing that is not going to be easy at all. I have tested it out. Multiple times with
Automatic responses. thats a deep problem psychologically.


I actually asked today a scientist kid my nephew sweet person. I set him up by asking connor "i want to ask you about birth defects and genetic defects scientifically. He said" ok." I then did the lead on quesrion we see defects in genetics occuring but when i turn and look at a cloud i see no defective clouds" . He then auto responded " well thats a philosophical question" i said "it was not remotely philosophical i am a scientist no defect turn defect. Where does defect start in nature between cloud and defective gene?" He insisted
it was a philosopical question" i said therefore climate deniers are correct, in saying its just a philosopical thing? "." Go sit with them and think about it get back to me i am acty dljnf science".

So i would say if i was jewish i undertood at least a part of it and was interested in psychology i might sit and contemplate it a bit more.....a worth while issue that maybe very dangerous or at least blinding us in other ways and not realizing it.

Pass this around to others share it talk about it. .i am correct i already know that, but can others see that? The 6 million lives wasted might be enough kick to the heart of our fellow beings. If it happens none were lost or wasted. Truth...
We ignore this we fail and ignore that travesty at our own risk. In all ways.

Sorry kinda important actually... I am just the messenger. Thats it.my daughter is guiding this and thats it. This is also directly related to the enviromental issues as well in how we are seeing it. Thats a fact.