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Cult Psychology (amateur) Studies

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Would you label any organization that sometimes uses some of those techniques in harmful ways, a dangerous cult”?

The link to the podcast states quite a few

Jehovahs Witnesses I know use information control, shun members and white wash their history, but their leaders are not deviants.

Scientology are known to shun former members and ruin their lives. They hate opposers. Project Snow White was the biggest infiltration of the US government in history and the Church of Scientology orchestrated it to get rid of incriminating information.
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
That is where I started in life, evangelical. My parents were baptists but got involved in an evangelical type church. I went to a small christian school sponsored by the church and sat including school chapel about 3-4 sermons per week for many years. I later left, went to a baptist church about a year....then converted to the christadelphians who are somewhat similar to JW's and to Church of Christ but not the same. I have also spent a year with some liberal quakers. I've also met various kinds of Christians, pagans, Jews, Muslims, couple of Vedics (Hindus), lots of atheists, some witches, some satanists, some gang members etc. I've met homeless people, been homeless, been many things none very lofty or successfully. When they passed out the pranks they must have thought I said "Thanks!" Anyways I've had my brushes with cults.

Families are cults. Everything else builds on that, and you can't live without a family. Even an orphan has some kind of a family, even if its just an administrator shuffling their file or clicking 'Status'. We start out looking at grownups as if they are gods. They're so tall and strong. They seem like everything they do is better than what we do when we're small. Its so easy to believe and so comfortable. I can't even be honest with myself about whether I'd go back. I say I wouldn't, but its like a drug. Its like a great big chair made just for you, and believing you sit back and are held. That's childhood, and that's how childhood ought to be at least at first. It should be so soft and wonderful, and you should have everything you need with some minor challenges of course. :p Children should have little problems not big ones.

The trouble comes when children are kept immature. When they're not given responsibility and not taught anything or played with, then there are problems that stem from that. Its especially bad when they are bred to be dependent. That is a favorite tool of slavers throughout the millennia. The enslaver works to convince the slave that the enslaver is an essential part of life. Sometimes the enslaver believes their own lie, too. When I was a child I really needed parents, but I'm not a child now. I need to take responsibility for my own life.

"You are IN now." Most groups have joining rituals. Its all about sweaty palms. They trot you up front to cement your membership and make you feel like you are responsible to keep showing up. Its not good. If you're a member its obvious. There's no need to play limbo. You just fit in. Now...if you want to work in the nursery or serve then of course there needs to be some kind of check, such as a criminal background check. That is administrative though. They take donations from anybody, and that should be more than enough of a joining ritual for most purposes. What's with all the pressure?

I am sorry that you went through that. I went through my own things. I do love the Quakers/Friends. They are the best of Christians to me and even allow non Christian belief into their religion. They are loving and open minded. I actually checked to see if there were any meeting houses near me. They are the only church I would go to.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They use unwashed hands?! I thought they realised their error years ago!

The physical brain actually has a big role to play in psychological problems. I watched a ted talk about brain scans once. The speaker said that psychiatrists said that his nephew had to go an asylum because he had psychopathic and murderous tendencies. He was still under the age of ten. So they guy disagreed and took his nephew to have a brain scan and he found a cist on the brain. They removed the cist and the kid became normal. Apparently doctors are using theory to diagnose a problem rather than using brain scans which is an objective scientific solution.

There are high levels of mental illness among cult groups because of disassociation, cognitive dissonance and other things. Their belief conflicts with their reality. The cult leaders will tell them they are happy, but then they are not, and they think there is something wrong with them, which leads to depression and whole lotta other things. It is reflected in culture.

Taking a breather in the wilderness is what is needed. Cults don't want their members to take a breather as it gives them time to think.
The vast majority of mental disorders ar ultimately neurosis. There is as we grow up a development of the self. That then is teained to navigate by waus amd means of abstractive symbols. That creates this self abstracting away im a limited small part of the nrain and it begins to abstract in context to itself. The process creates a stronger sense of self individualism at the expense of the physicality of reality itself.

Ecerything starts to abstract to ones own experience. And once tha becomes severe enough the mind will ocd itself into a break down and lose comtact with the simple action to breathe.

So if i was in front of a class i would go to one side of the chalk board and write my i would go to the other end of the chaulk board and write brain.

The gap monster. That is a magical telekenisis trick there for sure. Why does that exist? It has to do with the intellect. Interestingly my daughter really cant do that.
100%of all severe psychological states have this gap and over spectrum of the population its increasing. We are getting nuttier as we get more avstracticely informed. Where is that coming from!?

You are looking at it.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I am sorry that you went through that. I went through my own things. I do love the Quakers/Friends. They are the best of Christians to me and even allow non Christian belief into their religion. They are loving and open minded. I actually checked to see if there were any meeting houses near me. They are the only church I would go to.
Thanks! I'm more embarrassed of it than proud, but it is an experience that has made me. I wouldn't want to be someone other than who I am.

Yes the Quakers have something good going for them. I can't say I'm that familiar having only known a few very mature, reserved and experienced people. Its not like I know the quakers. Its more like I know the best of the quakers.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
My thought is, it wasnt a religion. It was a something else. Read jungs red book better yet get it. Its that. Or more precisily they were inducing what he was experiencing at that time as he wrote it. They were using Psychcotropics of the day. Not to stablize but to destablize the normal state of me on one end of the board and brain on the other to bring that back together. The saw "normal",as the problem actually, as it tends to herd and breakdown. Look at politics. They are nuts. Starting at the top. The mysteries would se me that as delusional.

They are normal and yet not right in the head either.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
My thought is, it wasnt a religion. It was a something else. Read jungs red book better yet get it. Its that. Or more precisily they were inducing what he was experiencing at that time as he wrote it. They were using Psychcotropics of the day. Not to stablize but to destablize the normal state of me on one end of the board and brain on the other to bring that back together. The saw "normal",as the problem actually, as it tends to herd and breakdown. Look at politics. They are nuts. Starting at the top. The mysteries would se me that as delusional.

They are normal and yet not right in the head either.

I must actually get Jungs books.

There is a link between hallucinogenics and religion. The freemasons, who also address the mysteries, view being normal as just being a force to be manipulated by those in charge. The mysteries are for the initiated who prove that they are exceptional, not that they are normal.

Great men by nature are nuts, which is why they are great.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I must actually get Jungs books.

There is a link between hallucinogenics and religion. The freemasons, who also address the mysteries, view being normal as just being a force to be manipulated by those in charge. The mysteries are for the initiated who prove that they are exceptional, not that they are normal.

Great men by nature are nuts, which is why they are great.
Lol i did a whole what would so and so say.
What would jesus say "thank god i am jesus and not a christian.

What would mohhamed say" thsnk god i am mohhamed and not muslim

What would abraham say, "thank god i am abraham and i am not jewish.
Oh wait i am jewish genetically but , am i a religion, what the hell i need to contemplate and get opinions on this...

I couldnt help it on the jewish uniqueness. Lol i did that just for you. I hadnt thought of it in my original post.

The list went on and on as well.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Lol i did a whole what would so and so say.
What would jesus say "thank god i am jesus and not a christian.

What would mohhamed say" thsnk god i am mohhamed and not muslim

What would abraham say, "thank god i am abraham and i am not jewish.
Oh wait i am jewish genetically but , am i a religion, what the hell i need to contemplate and get opinions on this...

I couldnt help it on the jewish uniqueness. Lol i did that just for you. I hadnt thought of it in my original post.

The list went on and on as well.

Firstly, Abraham was not a Jew. He was a Hebrew. Jews were descendants of Judah and after that Judaism got applied to all Isarelites.

Now that that is out of the way....

Your post is FUNNY!

I think L Ron Hubbard is actually quoted as saying something similar about starting a religion. He would rather take advantage of fools than be a fool himself.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
The link to the podcast states quite a few

Jehovahs Witnesses I know use information control, shun members and white wash their history, but their leaders are not deviants.

Scientology are known to shun former members and ruin their lives. They hate opposers. Project Snow White was the biggest infiltration of the US government in history and the Church of Scientology orchestrated it to get rid of incriminating information.
I’ll try asking my question a different way. If someone tells you about an organization that looks like a dangerous cult to them, and there is one leader in the cult who sometimes uses one of those BITE techniques in harmful ways, Will you add that organization to your list of cults?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I’ll try asking my question a different way. If someone tells you about an organization that looks like a dangerous cult to them, and there is one leader in the cult who sometimes uses one of those BITE techniques in harmful ways, Will you add that organization to your list of cults?

What do you mean by "sometimes"? That would make him inconsistent.

If that leaders enforces at least shunning or information control then I would consider it a dangerous cult. It means that they cant disagree with him or leave without a figurative gun held to their head. It contradicts freedom of information, freedom of speech and freedom in general. It basically conflicts with freedom of self expression which is a vital human need.

If anything else is required for the group but they are free to leave whenever they please without alienation and are exposed to loads of contrary information to their view.

Consider what Steve Hassan says about the BITE model:

"Like many techniques, it is not inherently good or evil. If mind control techniques are used to empower an individual to have more choice, and authority for their life remains within themselves, the effects can be beneficial. For example, benevolent mind control can be used to help people quit smoking without affecting any other behavior. Mind control becomes destructive when it undermines a person’s ability to think and act independently."

And this

"Destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause; it is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present."
 

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Jim

Nets of Wonder
If that leaders enforces at least shunning or information control then I would consider it a dangerous cult.
In that case you can add the Baha’i Faith to your list of dangerous cults. It uses shunning and information control.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
In that case you can add the Baha’i Faith to your list of dangerous cults. It uses shunning and information control.

Actually, come to think of it.....

The way they interpret the Bible by quoting Baha'u'llah without being able to comprehend alternative viewpoints made me feel like something was off. They accept his view as the absolute view while contradicting the context of the Bible. But my knowledge of them is limited so I thought it was only a few who viewed things in such a way. Dunno if that is true?

How members of a groups and their leaders interprets the texts of other faiths is a good indicator of whether they are influenced by information control.
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
Thanks! I'm more embarrassed of it than proud, but it is an experience that has made me. I wouldn't want to be someone other than who I am.

Yes the Quakers have something good going for them. I can't say I'm that familiar having only known a few very mature, reserved and experienced people. Its not like I know the quakers. Its more like I know the best of the quakers.

Well, I have never personally known any Quakers but I have read much about them especially on their website.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Thats news to me!

How is it implemented? And do you have links?
There are people who are labeled as “Covenant-breakers,” and there is a prohibition against associating with them. Whenever a member writes a book about the Baha’i Faith, they are required to have it approved by a Baha’i national spiritual assembly before they publish it. Once when someone wrote a paper contradicting a view of the Baha’i Universal House of Justice, the owner of an online collection of documents about the Baha’i Faith decided not to include that in the collection, on the advice of a member of a national spiritual assembly.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
There are people who are labeled as “Covenant-breakers,” and there is a prohibition against associating with them. Whenever a member writes a book about the Baha’i Faith, they are required to have it approved by a Baha’i national spiritual assembly before they publish it. Once when someone wrote a paper contradicting a view of the Baha’i Universal House of Justice, the owner of an online collection of documents about the Baha’i Faith decided not to include that in the collection, on the advice of a member of a national spiritual assembly.

So even if the book isn't included in the Bahai'i collection, are Bahai'i still allowed to read the book without consequences? Is it maybe similar to the left out books of the bible? They aren't included in the canon, but Christians can still study them.

From what I can tell from your religious affiliation on your posts, you are a Bahai'i? If so, what do you make of all this regarding your faith?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
So even if the book isn't included in the Bahai'i collection, are Bahai'i still allowed to read the book without consequences? Is it maybe similar to the left out books of the bible? They aren't included in the canon, but Christians can still study them.

From what I can tell from your religious affiliation on your posts, you are a Bahai'i? If so, what do you make of all this regarding your faith?
I don’t have any problem with it, if that what you mean. If what I’m saying is true, if there’s a prohibition against associating with people named as Covenant-breakers by the leaders, and if members are required to have books about the religion approved by the leaders before publishing them, then would you include that religion on your list of dangerous cults?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I don’t have any problem with it, if that what you mean. If what I’m saying is true, if there’s a prohibition against associating with people named as Covenant-breakers by the leaders, and if members are required to have books about the religion approved by the leaders before publishing them, then would you include that religion on your list of dangerous cults?

OK.

I would disagree with shunning because it is a form of abuse and illogical for its purpose, so in itself it is dangerous:

The practice of shunning and its consequences – SEDAA – Our Voices

Now looking at the Wikipedia example is important. The below are those who are excluded from shunning in the Bahai'i faith:

Excluded categories of people[edit]
Shoghi Effendi wrote to the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada in 1957:

People who have withdrawn from the Cause because they no longer feel that they can support its Teachings and Institutions sincerely, are not Covenant-breakers -- they are non-Bahá'ís and should just be treated as such. Only those who ally themselves actively with known enemies of the Faith who are Covenant-breakers, and who attack the Faith in the same spirit as these people, can be considered, themselves, to be Covenant-breakers.[4]

Beyond this, many other relationships to the Bahá'í Faith exist, both positive and negative. Covenant-breaking does not apply to most of them. The following is a partial list of those who could not rightly be termed Covenant-breakers:

  • Members of other religions or no religion--with or without any particular relationship to the Bahá'í Faith.
  • Bahá'ís who simply leave the religion. (see above)
  • Bahá'ís who, in the estimation of the head of the religion have insufficiently understood the nature of the covenant from the start. These are sometimes "disenrolled" and are considered to have never actually been Bahá'ís, given their fundamental diversion from this core Bahá'í doctrine

Then again one has this problem:

Included categories of people[edit]
Most Covenant-breakers are involved in schismatic groups, but not always. For example, a Bahá'í who refuses to follow guidance on treatment of Covenant-breakers is at risk of being named one. One article[3] originally written for the Bahá'í Encyclopedia, characterized Covenant-breakers that have emerged in the course of Bahá'í history as belonging to one of four categories:

  1. Leadership challenge: These are persons who dispute the authority and legitimacy of the head of the religion and advance claims either for themselves or for another. The main examples of these are Mírzá Muhammad `Alí and Charles Mason Remey.
  2. Dissidence: Those who actively disagree with the policies and actions of the head of the faith without, however, advancing an alternative claim for leadership. This group consisted mostly of opponents of the Bahá'í administration such as Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab.
  3. Disobedience: Those who disobey certain direct instructions from the head of the religion. Mostly the instruction in question is to cease to associate with a Covenant-breaker. Examples of this type include most of the descendants of `Abdu'l-Bahá during Shoghi Effendi's time.
  4. Apostates who maliciously attack the Bahá'í Faith. Examples include Ávárih and Níkú.
I do not know what malicious means. But if former members cannot genuinely criticize the faith without being shunned, which is illogical, then that is a problem. Truth stands up to scrutiny, and there is a good chance that a knowledgeable Ex-member might know enough about the faith to refute it, which those who have never been Bahai'i wouldn't know.

But, then again, would the Bahai'i engage with non Bahai'i who has received potentially damning information from an ex- Bahai'i? And what qualifies as a "malicious attack?"

I have no problem with books being approved by leaders in order to publish it on the religions site. That is why I asked the question:

"So even if the book isn't included in the Bahai'i collection, are Bahai'i still allowed to read the book without consequences?"
 
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