Crossbreed atheism with spirituality

[ecco]

They can be divorced from human values if they come under the influence of nihilist philosophies, which is still a hugely popular philosophy in the west.

On what do you base your assumption that atheists are nihilistic?

​

There were christians who adhered to a code of virtuous conduct like Martin Luther King,the Greek christian priests who refused to hand over Jews to the Nazis and so on.

That doesn't excuse or alter what I previously said...
The Christians in 1930-1940 Germany who jailed and murdered millions of Jews were Christians. The Christians who hunted and burned thousands of witches at the stake were Christians. The Christians who tortured mostly Jews during the inquisitions were Christians. The American Christians who bought, owned, and beat slaves were Christians. If they didn't act like you believe Christians would act, well, you are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to define who they were.

​

Atheist-materialism wedded to a proper code of virtuous conduct, as in secular humanism, is not at all evil. This code of conduct does not have to be of religious orientation.

OK

My focus over here is on adherence to a value based code of conduct, religious or secular humanistic, which is immune to any influence of nihilistic philosophies.

How would you go about implementing that?

Western philosophy guides the thought process of atheist-materialists in the west, and I am not sure this can lead to good alone.

Western philosophy guides the thought process of most people in the west.

 

[ecco]

Irrespective of what the parents claim, their actual actions influence children. There is evidence that the children of parents who pay lip service to religion matching actions, are more likely to turn up atheists.

On the other hand, parents who do more than pay lip service to religion, those who have two-year-olds say nightly prayers and attend church will almost always have indoctrinated children.

 

[atanu]

On the other hand, parents who do more than pay lip service to religion, those who have two-year-olds say nightly prayers and attend church will almost always have indoctrinated children.

Prayer and meditation are good.

 

[ajay0]

On what do you base your assumption that atheists are nihilistic?

You yourself have stated that western philosophy guides the thought process of most people in the west. Thus obviously it is a natural corollary to presume that atheists will tend to adhere to nihilistic thought processes. If one can reject God,gods and deities and religion, why not virtues and values as well!​

How would you go about implementing that?

I showcased the dangers of nihilist-existentialist conditioning. As explained in the given thread , eastern philosophy shows that values and virtuous conduct are potent and significant in itself to attain Nirvana or enlightenment, even for an non-theist or agnostic.
Are there any western philosophies which you think negates nihilism and existentialism comprehensively ! If not, you are free to look east then. After all, western math and science can be traced back to advances in India and the Middle East.

Western philosophy guides the thought process of most people in the west.

Indeed.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Authors suggest:

There is case that aggressive strand of atheism: in the Soviet case, Khrushchev-era atheist propaganda and in the contemporary Western case, the “New Atheism” had been/is a factor in giving rise to atheist spirituality.

There is recognition in some that opposition to something or even factors that are often associated with atheism (such as rationality, naturalism, science, criticism of religion) do not necessarily provide a deeper meaningfulness or purpose in life. Instead, failing to produce a positive alternative for religion in combination with the aggressive rhetoric results in a bad reputation for atheism.

Secularism and Nonreligion

Does any atheist agree?

Honestly, I don't even really understand the point being made.

Agree with what, exactly?

Sounds like a giant strawman.......
Which atheist says that things like rationality, naturalism, science, criticism of religion,.... has anything whatsoever to do with finding meaning and purpose in life?

So I'll guess I'll disagree then... on the count of the basic premise being a giant fallacious strawman.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Did you read the article, especially the section on Soviet Communist Atheism?

If you truelly think that the problem in soviet russia was atheism, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[atanu]

Agree with what, exactly?

Sounds like a giant strawman.......
Which atheist says that things like rationality, naturalism, science, criticism of religion,.... has anything whatsoever to do with finding meaning and purpose in life?

Ha ha. You have articulated the very point of the cited article that atheism has nothing to do with finding purpose in life. And that is an abyssal gap.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ha ha. You have articulated the very point of the cited article that atheism has nothing to do with finding purpose in life

So, it's just stating the obvious then?
Owkay.... remind me again, what the point of that is?

And that is an abyssal gap.

??

Why?

Atheism is just a word concerning a single stance on a single issue.... it's just a label to identify people who don't hold religious beliefs.
Anything else you wish to associate with that, is going to be wrong right out the gates.

Just because atheism is about a position on supernatural claims, doesn't mean that an atheist doesn't have any opinions or beliefs about other things.

Atheism also has nothing to do with political ideologies. Does that mean then that atheists have no political ideologies or opinions?

What weird things to say....................

 

[atanu]

So, it's just stating the obvious then?
...
Atheism is just a word concerning a single stance on a single issue.......

So, are you not saying that atheism has nothing to do with common human need of finding meaning in life?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, are you not saying that atheism has nothing to do with common human need of finding meaning in life?

Your double negative makes this a confusing sentence.

I'm saying that the word atheism is about a single stance on a single issue: disbelief of supernatural/religious claims.

Whatever any individual atheist believes about other things (like meaning or purpose or whatever you want) are issues seperate of atheism.

It has nothing to do with it.

Me saying that I disbelieve the claim that gods/the supernatural exist, doesn't tell you anything about what I believe (or not) concerning things like meaning / purpose of life. Or what I should have for breakfast tomorrow.

Just because specific theistic religions happen to impose certain specific things concerning meaning / purpose that followers are required to believe, doesn't mean that the same is true for atheism.

Atheism isn't anything.... It's not a claim, it's not a worldview. It's the rejection of one.

To sum up in simpler terms:

When I tell you what my world view is NOT or what it does NOT include, that doesn't tell you anything about what it DOES include....

And that's all that the label "atheist" really does: it tells you what a person does NOT believe - and that concerning only one specific thing.

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[atanu]

Whatever any individual atheist believes about other things (like meaning or purpose or whatever you want) are issues seperate of atheism.
It has nothing to do with it.

Why is this so hard to understand?

It is not at all hard to understand. I have extracted out the point that relates to the OP. The paper linked in the OP says the same thing that you say and more. Authors examine the appeal to spirituality in the period of late Soviet atheism and in contemporary Western “atheist spirituality”. They give reasons for emphasis on existential questions within an atheist tradition in recent times.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is not at all hard to understand. I have extracted out the point that relates to the OP. The paper linked in the OP says the same thing that you say and more.

So, again, then it's just stating the obvious.
Might as well be saying that the label "professional soccer player" doesn't tell you about what that soccer player likes for breakfast.

Kind of makes me wonder why one would write a whole essay, just to state the obvious.

Authors examine the appeal to spirituality in the period of late Soviet atheism and in contemporary Western “atheist spirituality”. They give reasons for emphasis on existential questions within an atheist tradition in recent times.

Disclaimer: I haven't read it so I'm just going by what you are saying about it.


It sounds to me like that whole essay is flawed from the beginning.
Sounds to me like it is comparing soviet communist culture to western culture, concerning only those who have no religious beliefs.

This won't tell you much, if anything at all, about atheism.
It will rather tell you about statistical differences between soviet communist atheists and western secular atheists and that concerning one specific topic only.

Having said that, all previous points I made still apply.

I think it makes sense to do a study about certain topics that are superimposed on people by the religions they follow (through doctrine or whatever) and see how atheists, who don't follow any religion, approach and/or view those subjects. But this necessarily is about individual atheist's opinion. Because atheism is just the rejection of religious claims. There is no central doctrine or "teaching" or whatever.


So what is this about, really?

 

[atanu]

So, again, then it's just stating the obvious.
Might as well be saying that the label "professional soccer player" doesn't tell you about what that soccer player likes for breakfast.

Kind of makes me wonder why one would write a whole essay, just to state the obvious.


Disclaimer: I haven't read it so I'm just going by what you are saying about it.


It sounds to me like that whole essay is flawed from the beginning.
Sounds to me like it is comparing soviet communist culture to western culture, concerning only those who have no religious beliefs.

This won't tell you much, if anything at all, about atheism.
It will rather tell you about statistical differences between soviet communist atheists and western secular atheists and that concerning one specific topic only.

Having said that, all previous points I made still apply.

I think it makes sense to do a study about certain topics that are superimposed on people by the religions they follow (through doctrine or whatever) and see how atheists, who don't follow any religion, approach and/or view those subjects. But this necessarily is about individual atheist's opinion. Because atheism is just the rejection of religious claims. There is no central doctrine or "teaching" or whatever.


So what is this about, really?

Well. You have not read the paper (incidentaly in a Humanism and non religion portal), but you conclude many things.

Best.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well. You have not read the paper (incidentaly in a Humanism and non religion portal), but you conclude many things.

Best.

I don't care who posted what where, it's about content. Did you expect me to auto-agree with it by association or something? And why "incidently"? Am I supposed to read everything on there because I'm atheist?
Fact is that I never even heared of the site.

I said in the disclaimer that I didn't read it AND that I'm just going by what YOU are saying about it.
So I'm responding to YOU, not the paper.

If I have it all wrong, then perhaps your information about said paper was incorrect.

 

[atanu]

If I have it all wrong, then perhaps your information about said paper was incorrect.

Ha ha. That is I why love atheists. Most remind me of my deceased mother. Her pet last statement about everything was “Fault lies with your father”.

[RIP Mom].

 

[ecco]

Prayer and meditation are good.

There are quite a few people on this forum who were indoctrinated with prayer in early childhood. We see them now denying science solely because science disagrees with the Bible. That is not good.

In the 20th Century, manufacturing was king and America was the king of kings. In the 21st Century science is king. America is falling behind partially because too many Americans prefer myth to knowledge.


What is the difference between meditation and taking a short nap?

 

[ecco]

You still haven't addressed...

That doesn't excuse or alter what I previously said...
The Christians in 1930-1940 Germany who jailed and murdered millions of Jews were Christians. The Christians who hunted and burned thousands of witches at the stake were Christians. The Christians who tortured mostly Jews during the inquisitions were Christians. The American Christians who bought, owned, and beat slaves were Christians. If they didn't act like you believe Christians would act, well, you are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to define who they were.

On what do you base your assumption that atheists are nihilistic?

You yourself have stated that western philosophy guides the thought process of most people in the west. Thus obviously it is a natural corollary to presume that atheists will tend to adhere to nihilistic thought processes.

​

Logic is not one of your strong points. How did you get from the first sentence to the second one?

In order for it to be "thus obviously" you have to show that western philosophy is based on nihilistic thought processes and that western theists do not adhere to nihilistic thought processes.

If one can reject God,gods and deities and religion, why not virtues and values as well!

If one accepts the God of the Christians and the virtues and values as espoused in the Bible, then one would have to consider slavery virtuous. I don't.
If one accepts the God of the Christians and the virtues and values as espoused in the Bible, then one would have to consider rape virtuous. I don't.
If one accepts the God of the Christians and the virtues and values as espoused in the Bible, then one would have to consider murder virtuous. I don't.

As you can see, I reject "God,gods and deities and religion" because my morals are more virtuous.

I am not familiar with the sacred writings of the "east" but I'd be willing bet there is a lot of the same stuff, especially if you throw Islam into to mix.

I showcased the dangers of nihilist-existentialist conditioning. As explained in the given thread , eastern philosophy shows that values and virtuous conduct are potent and significant in itself to attain Nirvana or enlightenment, even for an non-theist or agnostic.

My question was: How would you implement that?

Are there any western philosophies which you think negates nihilism and existentialism comprehensively !

ni·hil·ism
/ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/
noun
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
​

Atheism. Although atheism is not just a western philosophy.

I don't know any atheists who believe that life is meaningless. Quite the contrary, knowing that existence ends with death, atheists get greater meaning out of life.

I don't know any atheists who reject moral principles. Quite the contrary, history and sacred writings show the utter lack of morals of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

[atanu]

.
What is the difference between meditation and taking a short nap?

Excellent question. Allow me to paraphrase from an Upanishad.

Men go unknowingly over gold mine everyday in sleep.

In Vedas, Gold is often a symbol for the immutable, perennial, and illimitable.

Meditation can show one the truth of above scripture. But pending a subjective experience, one can examine the third party results.

YMMV.

 

[ecco]

Excellent question. Allow me to paraphrase from an Upanishad.

Instead of paraphrasing from an Upanishad, why not just answer the question yourself?

 

[atanu]

Instead of paraphrasing from an Upanishad, why not just answer the question yourself?

You cannot dictate me. You talk about what you don’t understand from the post.