Cross In Worship

[McBell]

the cross is pagan , and christendom have taken it on board , casting off pagan things is the way to go as it puts us on a clean standing with the Almighty.Jesus did not teach us to have any symbol, he knew that it was wrong in the eyes of his father Jehovah God. he was familiar with right and wrong .
The shape of the cross had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)
there is no evidence that early Christians used the cross in their worship. During the early days of Christianity, it was the pagan Romans who used the cross!
The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics says: "With the 4th cent[ury] magical belief began to take a firmer hold within the Church." As with a magic charm, simply making the sign of the cross was thought to be "the surest defence against demons, and the remedy for all diseases." Superstitious use of the cross continues to this day.

All of that and you forgot to simply answer the question:

Where did Jesus teach that any symbol that once was used by pagans is not to be used in the worship of Him?
​

IF you cannot answer this question and show exactly where Jesus taught that the cross, or any other symbol that was once pagan, is not to be used in worship of Him (Jesus) you have no argument.

very true indeed ............... Babylon the great.... has great influence ,it is best to be out of there. revelation 18;4

Please be so kind as to explain what this has to do with your thus far being unable/unwilling to present scripture that shows Jesus teaching not to use anysymbol that was once pagan to worship Him?

*waves hands* Hey, all! Please remember that this is a discussion sub-forum and for JW's, at that. Please remember not to debate.

I am not debating.
I am merely asking for the source of this alleged 'do not use any symbols that were once pagan to worship me' theory is supported by Jesus Himself.

I have looked, and without seriously rewriting the scriptures, I cannot find it.
I had first thought I merely overlooked it, missed it even, but with the flat out refusal in this thread to present it, I have to wonder if it even exists in scripture.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I wasn't speaking directly to anyone. I was just pointed out that this is a DIR thread, and not a debate one. If one wishes to question the OP or another topic in a debating method, one can create a thread in the 'debates' area to do so.

 

[may]

All of that and you forgot to simply answer the question:

Where did Jesus teach that any symbol that once was used by pagans is not to be used in the worship of Him?​

mquote]
show me where it says that we are to take up pagan symbols, doing that was and always has been a no no for Gods people.mixing false with true has always been a no,no, and loving the true God with all our hearts is the first commandment and the true God said no symbols. that has always stood and still does
Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry.
1 corinthians 10;14
(1 John 5:21) Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

Their idols are silver and gold,​

The work of the hands of earthling man.psalm 115;4

 

[may]

All of that and you forgot to simply answer the question:

Where did Jesus teach that any symbol that once was used by pagans is not to be used in the worship of Him?​

IF you cannot answer this question and show exactly where Jesus taught that the cross, or any other symbol that was once pagan, is not to be used in worship of Him (Jesus) you have no argument.


Please be so kind as to explain what this has to do with your thus far being unable/unwilling to present scripture that shows Jesus teaching not to use anysymbol that was once pagan to worship Him?



I am not debating.
I am merely asking for the source of this alleged 'do not use any symbols that were once pagan to worship me' theory is supported by Jesus Himself.

I have looked, and without seriously rewriting the scriptures, I cannot find it.
I had first thought I merely overlooked it, missed it even, but with the flat out refusal in this thread to present it, I have to wonder if it even exists in scripture.

why do you think that false religion is refered to as BABYLON THE GREAT......... it is because she has her roots in babylonish teachings , research on where various teachings sprang from will reveal all . Jehovah is looking for those who are wanting to worship him in spirit and truth . it is not a case of what do we as individuals require ,but it is a case of ..........what does God require ..................
ancient Babylon was the focal point of false religion, which in course of time infected the whole world. Babylonish religious practices, doctrines, traditions, and symbols have permeated all parts of the earth and are reflected in the hodgepodge of the world’s many thousands of religions. Political kingdoms and empires have risen and fallen, but Babylonish religion has survived them all................... and Gods people are told to GET OUT OF HER REVELATION 18;4

 

[McBell]

All of that and you forgot to simply answer the question:

Where did Jesus teach that any symbol that once was used by pagans is not to be used in the worship of Him?​

show me where it says that we are to take up pagan symbols, doing that was and always has been a no no for Gods people.mixing false with true has always been a no,no, and loving the true God with all our hearts is the first commandment and the true God said no symbols. that has always stood and still does
Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry.
1 corinthians 10;14
(1 John 5:21) Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

Their idols are silver and gold,​

The work of the hands of earthling man.psalm 115;4

Since you STILL cannot/will not present anything, I will merely have to wait and see if anyone else can and will.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

MOD POST

This is a Discuss individual religions thread. That means that everyone, even members of the religion that's being discussed must abide by the 'do not debate in this area' forum rules. If this continues, warnings will be given, and the thread will be closed.

/End Mod Post

 

[may]

Jehovahs witnesses do not worship or use the cross in worship because it is wrong in the eyes of the true God.

Is​

veneration of the cross a Scriptural practice?​

1 Cor. 10:14: "My beloved ones, flee from idolatry." (An idol is an image or symbol that is an object of intense devotion, veneration, or worship.)
Ex. 20:4, 5, JB: "You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them." (Notice that God commanded that his people not even make an image before which people would bow down.)
Of interest is this comment in the New Catholic Encyclopedia: "The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion."—(1967), Vol. IV, p. 486.​

Concerning first-century Christians, History of the Christian Church says: "There was no use of the crucifix and no material representation of the cross."—(New York, 1897), J. F. Hurst, Vol. I, p. 366.

 

[sojourner]

"Graven image," in its Biblical use, refers to a representation of a god that is actually the god itself, containing all the power of the god. In that case, the idol itself is the object of worship. The cross is different, in that the cross is not seen as God, nor does it contain God's power. We don't worship the cross -- it is not the object of our worship; God is the object of our worship.

The cross was being widely used by the time the Bible was canonized.

 

[may]

The cross was being widely used by the time the Bible was canonized.

but that does not make it right. it has its roots in babylonish worship , ............. best to get rid of it if it is anything to do with false religion . true worshipers dont need anything visual, they worship in spirit and truth. that is the way to go, progression works wonders .

You may assume that Christians were the first to use the cross. The Encyclopedia Americana, however, speaks of "its ancient usage by both Hindus and Buddhists in India and China, and by the Persians, Assyrians, and Babylonians." Similarly, Chambers’s Encyclopaedia, (1969 edition) says that the cross "was an emblem to which religious and mystical meanings were attached long before the Christian era."​

Indeed, there is no evidence that early Christians used the cross in their worship. During the early days of Christianity, it was the pagan Romans who used the cross! Says The Companion Bible: "These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god . . . and are first seen on a coin of Julius Caesar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Caesar’s heir (Augustus), 20 B.C." The Roman nature-god Bacchus was at times represented with a headband containing a number of crosses.
A Christian Symbol? i dont think so
Why, then, was the cross so easily accepted by "Christians"? Vine’s Dictionary says"By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."

 

[McBell]

All of that and you forgot to simply answer the question:

Where did Jesus teach that any symbol that once was used by pagans is not to be used in the worship of Him?​

mquote]
show me where it says that we are to take up pagan symbols, doing that was and always has been a no no for Gods people.mixing false with true has always been a no,no, and loving the true God with all our hearts is the first commandment and the true God said no symbols. that has always stood and still does
Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry.
1 corinthians 10;14
(1 John 5:21) Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

Their idols are silver and gold,​

The work of the hands of earthling man.psalm 115;4

Put this in a debate thread and I shall show you why you are flat out wrong.
Since even asking for something other than your opinion as verification is considered debating on this forum...

 

[sojourner]

but that does not make it right. it has its roots in babylonish worship , ............. best to get rid of it if it is anything to do with false religion . true worshipers dont need anything visual, they worship in spirit and truth. that is the way to go, progression works wonders .

You may assume that Christians were the first to use the cross. The Encyclopedia Americana, however, speaks of "its ancient usage by both Hindus and Buddhists in India and China, and by the Persians, Assyrians, and Babylonians." Similarly, Chambers’s Encyclopaedia, (1969 edition) says that the cross "was an emblem to which religious and mystical meanings were attached long before the Christian era."​

Indeed, there is no evidence that early Christians used the cross in their worship. During the early days of Christianity, it was the pagan Romans who used the cross! Says The Companion Bible: "These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god . . . and are first seen on a coin of Julius Caesar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Caesar’s heir (Augustus), 20 B.C." The Roman nature-god Bacchus was at times represented with a headband containing a number of crosses.
A Christian Symbol? i dont think so
Why, then, was the cross so easily accepted by "Christians"? Vine’s Dictionary says"By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."

I wonder why it is that the earlier Christians chose to do that? I agree that the cross is a fairly universal symbol. Perhaps that's it's beauty as a symbol, in that it can speak across cultural lines. If Christ is for the whole world, surely a more universal symbol (such as the cross) can help make Christ more accessible to a wider cross-section of the world population?

This begs a broader question: Does conversion of religion include a conversion of culture? Does a person have to dress like me, talk like me, and sing like me, in order to be a Christian? If Christianity is to cut across cultural boundaries to embrace all cultures, surely some familiarity to one's own culture must be maintained, in order to assure 1) some level of orientation and 2) a level of meaning, whereby the theology works with the culture, in order to be more than just a system of thought. By retaining some of the foundation, one can more easily assimilate Christian theology into a usable praxis.

In this case, I think the cross speaks to a wide variety of cultures in a very foundational sense, and that it can appropriately be used in Christian worship, as pan-cultural as Christianity is supposed to be.

 

[may]

I wonder why it is that the earlier Christians chose to do that? I agree that the cross is a fairly universal symbol. Perhaps that's it's beauty as a symbol, in that it can speak across cultural lines. If Christ is for the whole world, surely a more universal symbol (such as the cross) can help make Christ more accessible to a wider cross-section of the world population?

This begs a broader question: Does conversion of religion include a conversion of culture? Does a person have to dress like me, talk like me, and sing like me, in order to be a Christian? If Christianity is to cut across cultural boundaries to embrace all cultures, surely some familiarity to one's own culture must be maintained, in order to assure 1) some level of orientation and 2) a level of meaning, whereby the theology works with the culture, in order to be more than just a system of thought. By retaining some of the foundation, one can more easily assimilate Christian theology into a usable praxis.

In this case, I think the cross speaks to a wide variety of cultures in a very foundational sense, and that it can appropriately be used in Christian worship, as pan-cultural as Christianity is supposed to be.

or we can look at it the way that Jesus did, he said that apostate teachings would infiltrate the congregations , and that these teachings would be around for centuries.

John accurately reflected the teachings of true Christianity when he admonished his fellow Christians with the words: "Guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:21) This they did even when it meant facing death in the Roman arena.​

First-century Christians, however, held the sacrificial death of Christ in high esteem. Likewise today, although the instrument used to torture and kill Jesus is not to be worshipped, true Christians commemorate Jesus’ death as the means by which God provides salvation to imperfect humans. (Matthew 20:28) This superlative expression of God’s love will bring untold blessings to lovers of truth, including the prospect of everlasting life.—John 17:3; Revelation 21:3, 4.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures." Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.

 

[sojourner]

true Christians commemorate Jesus’ death as the means by which God provides salvation to imperfect humans.

How do you define "true Christian?" Many who would define themselves as "true Christians" do not hold to a sacrificial soteriology, but rather an incarnational soteriology. And, no one that I know of worships the cross, as I've mentioned before.

Since we've eliminated the worship of the cross, and since there is a question of just what constitutes a "true" Christian, I don't understand your pov.