Cross In Worship

[theo]

i don't mean to oversimplify things but why does using a cross or not make a difference?
and you can surely not be saying those of us that wear a cross are not true christians??
the cross isn't important it is what it represents, that jesus was crucified to save us. whether he died on a cross, a tree or anywhere holds little relevance in my eyes.

 

[Dream Angel]

Technically you could say that a tree was pagan though, as a cross is made of wood which comes from a tree. So its all the same thing really!

 

[McBell]

May,
would you be so kind as to define exactly what you mean by "True Christian?"

Seems to me that May is relying rather heavily on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

The cross is a symbol, one of many used by the Christian community as well as many other religious orientations.

Symbols mean different things to different people.
To make the claim that those who use the cross to symbolize and remind themselves of the sacrifice that Jesus made are not 'true' Christians is rather asinine.

From post #4:

for a true christian , anything to do with pagan worship is a no no. to mix our worship with pagan beliefs would be wrong in the eyes of the most high. and the bible tells his people to.... get out of her..... in the book of revelation, in revelation 18;4 , .........Babylon the great.......... is the world empire of false religion and the cross is a babylonish symbol so true christians are out of babylonish things because it is something that will contaminate their true worship ,if they take on board things that have babylonish roots............. pure worship is what true christians are after ,not mixing false with pure. true christians are after truth .

​

Seems this belief puts you on rather shaky ground.
Since there is not one single symbol used by Christianity that did not originate from pagans.

In fact, It is extremely shaky ground once you realize that there is no story within the Bible that has not already been told in at least one pagan belief system.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus was brought up as a Jew so he would have done all of those things but as we all know we only need to love Jehovah God with our whole soul , mind and heart , and love our neighbour as ourself Jesus put and end to the many things like animal sacrifice. we dont need alters any more .

If that's how you want to think about it. But think about this: Jesus, by his participation in the ritual sacrifice, advocated the ritual sacrifice as being important. This holds true, because he spoke of himself as being "the Paschal Lamb, who is sacrificed for the sin of the world." It is that one sacrifice in which many Christians choose to participate when the Eucharist is celebrated "in remembrance." That sacrifice is "remembered" on the altar. We need altars in order to have a focal point for our participation in that one sacrifice.

It matters not whether the altar is a slab, or a table, or whatever. It's the focal point that helps center our hearts on Christ and on what he did for us. The cross is the same thing. It matters not what it "looks like." It reminds us of what Christ did for us.

 

[may]

May,
would you be so kind as to define exactly what you mean by "True Christian?"

Afollower of Jesus christ and what he taught .

 

[may]

Maybe a tree would be a better symbol for Christians to use? CONASPEH, the association of churches in Haiti, uses as its symbol an upside down tree, with its roots in heaven and its leaves planted in the earth. This symbolizes that our faith is rooted in Christ, and our growth and productivity occurs here on earth.

i think it does say that it was a tree in the king james somewhere ,

 

[may]

Hey May,
I do not agree that Jesus did not die on a cross. First things are, the words, "jesus King of the Jews" (or something along those lines!) were written above his head? (I think your teachings agree with this), If he had died on the pole, noone would have been able to see these words because his hands would have been in the way. Therefore we would not have known about these words today!!! Also Jesus had two nails in his hands (one for each), If he had been on a stake he would have only needed one!

Why is the cross pagan, he was a convert he wasnt pagan anymore? What wrong with trying to make friends with pagans by using their apparant symbol - after all you yourselves teach we are supposed to spread the word of God, you cant do that if they wont listen!

A cross is made of wood, which comes from a tree, so it called be called a tree yes, but it doesnt mean to say it was in the form of a cross. A "tree" could have been a chair, a table, a door etc etc!

Cross: Jesus did not die on a cross. He died on a pole, or a stake. The Greek word translated "cross" in many Bibles meant just one piece of timber. The symbol of the cross comes from ancient false religions. The cross was not used or worshiped by the early Christians. Therefore, do you think it would be right to use a cross in worship?—Deuteronomy 7:26; 1 Corinthians 10:14.

 

[Dream Angel]

Cross: Jesus did not die on a cross. He died on a pole, or a stake. The Greek word translated "cross" in many Bibles meant just one piece of timber. The symbol of the cross comes from ancient false religions. The cross was not used or worshiped by the early Christians. Therefore, do you think it would be right to use a cross in worship?—Deuteronomy 7:26; 1 Corinthians 10:14.

I think you need to reread that post of mine you quoted! I was stating reasons why it had to be a cross. ie. the words "King of the Jews" above his head. If he was on stake/pole noone would have been able to see these words! Also he had two nails put into his hands. If he had been on a pole he would have only needed one nail!

The early christians wouldnt have used the bible either as it didnt exist! so I guess that makes you not a true christian also!

 

[Dream Angel]

Tree = cross, pole, stake, chair, table, door.

hmmm.. maybe he was crucified on a chair!

All I am saying is tree can be translated to mean many different things. It just means it was made of wood!

 

[sojourner]

Cross: Jesus did not die on a cross. He died on a pole, or a stake. The Greek word translated "cross" in many Bibles meant just one piece of timber. The symbol of the cross comes from ancient false religions. The cross was not used or worshiped by the early Christians. Therefore, do you think it would be right to use a cross in worship?—Deuteronomy 7:26; 1 Corinthians 10:14.

IMO, just because it was not used by the early Christians is not a good reason why we shouldn't use it today. The early Christians used wine, too. Today, many of us use grape juice, which was developed in the 19th century. Does that make grape juice wrong?

It's not the detail that makes it right or wrong, it's the spirit in which worship is made. "Those who worship must worship in spirit and in truth." To me, That means that we worship honestly, and in our hearts, not that we have to have every single detail of the rite and the ritual "right."

 

[sojourner]

i think it does say that it was a tree in the king james somewhere ,

Plus, it's a great symbol!:yes:

 

[McBell]

Afollower of Jesus christ and what he taught .

And where did Jesus teach that any symbol that once was used by pagans is not to be used in the worship of Him?


Would you be so kind as to reply to this:

The cross is a symbol, one of many used by the Christian community as well as many other religious orientations.

Symbols mean different things to different people.
To make the claim that those who use the cross to symbolize and remind themselves of the sacrifice that Jesus made are not 'true' Christians is rather asinine.

From post #4:

for a true christian , anything to do with pagan worship is a no no. to mix our worship with pagan beliefs would be wrong in the eyes of the most high. and the bible tells his people to.... get out of her..... in the book of revelation, in revelation 18;4 , .........Babylon the great.......... is the world empire of false religion and the cross is a babylonish symbol so true christians are out of babylonish things because it is something that will contaminate their true worship ,if they take on board things that have babylonish roots............. pure worship is what true christians are after ,not mixing false with pure. true christians are after truth .

​

Seems this belief puts you on rather shaky ground.
Since there is not one single symbol used by Christianity that did not originate from pagans.

In fact, It is extremely shaky ground once you realize that there is no story within the Bible that has not already been told in at least one pagan belief system.
​

 

[may]

Since there is not one single symbol used by Christianity that did not originate from pagans.

the cross is pagan , and christendom have taken it on board , casting off pagan things is the way to go as it puts us on a clean standing with the Almighty.Jesus did not teach us to have any symbol, he knew that it was wrong in the eyes of his father Jehovah God. he was familiar with right and wrong .
The shape of the cross had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)
there is no evidence that early Christians used the cross in their worship. During the early days of Christianity, it was the pagan Romans who used the cross!
The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics says: "With the 4th cent[ury] magical belief began to take a firmer hold within the Church." As with a magic charm, simply making the sign of the cross was thought to be "the surest defence against demons, and the remedy for all diseases." Superstitious use of the cross continues to this day.

 

[may]

The cross is a symbol, one of many used by the Christian community as well as many other religious orientations.​

very true indeed ............... Babylon the great.... has great influence ,it is best to be out of there. revelation 18;4

 

[may]

Plus, it's a great symbol!:yes:

do we need a symbol to worship in spirit and truth ?:no:
"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."—JOHN 4:24.

 

[gmelrod]

do we need a symbol to worship in spirit and truth ?:no:
"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."—JOHN 4:24.

We do need symbols to worship. The letters you see on the screen are symbols of sounds. The sounds, when asembeled properly form words which are them selves symbols for concpets. Without language, a system of symbols, we could not come to know God through the revealed text, nor could we comunicate that text to others. There is no diffrence between language as symbols and other types of symbols such as the cross. They are used as a way to represent concepts important to the faith and a way of getting at them. But just as we must lean letters and words before we can read scripture we must learn what other symbols mean. But there is nothing in their nature as symbols that takes away from God. No more than the letters G-O-D.

May I just finished reading the thread and I did not mean to intrude on a private discussion. If you would like to have a debate on this topic I would be happy to do so in a forum where debate is allowed. again sorry

 

[wizanda]

True and in that lets give the cross back its real meaning and remove the Balaam teachings from it (sacrifice of anything and especially Christ) as stated before a cross is a monument or a marking in Ancient Hebrew and most cultures....it has almost been stolen from everyone else’s cultures, in the sense that now it is seen as being a torture device of our prophets.

Yet when Yeshua said “everyone must carry their cross”, he meant work as monument for God and so to be seen as a light unto many…not carry a cross around your neck, to prove you don’t like him.
As in every time I see one them with him on, cant help thinking “let that poor man down, hasn’t he been there long enough, please” and also “that would really hurt”.
So think is it right, to one have an idol and two to prove you believe in Balaam teachings?

 

[sojourner]

do we need a symbol to worship in spirit and truth ?:no:
"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."—JOHN 4:24.

We don't need mirrors to drive a car, either, but it comes in handy to have the visual aid!

 

[sojourner]

not carry a cross around your neck, to prove you don’t like him.

Methinks you opine incorrectly.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

*waves hands* Hey, all! Please remember that this is a discussion sub-forum and for JW's, at that. Please remember not to debate.