Cross In Worship

[athanasius]

It was not until about 300 years after Jesus’ death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross. However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·ros´. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree.

Actuallyt he word itslef in Koine Greek has the meaning of a two beam cross. The two beam cross is also something that archeologist found evidence of in the 60's. The organization you reluy on is eithe ignornat or lying to you.

 

[Quagmire]

Actuallyt he word itslef in Koine Greek has the meaning of a two beam cross. The two beam cross is also something that archeologist found evidence of in the 60's. The organization you reluy on is eithe ignornat or lying to you.

Actually, by the first cent. "stau-ros" could have mean't either one: a simple stake or a stake with a crossbeam.

There are, in my opinion, more reasons to assume that anyone crucified in Palistine in the first cent. was in fact nailed to a crossbeam, but linguistics don't favor one theory or the other.

 

[Mike182]

hi everyone! just a reminder that this thread is in JW DIR forum, and the DIR forum rules are as follows:

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http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item

 

[dawny0826]

Thanks Mike. I noticed that after I posted.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks Mike. I noticed that after I posted.

Me too! I wonder why she put it there. It sounded as if she wanted to debate. I'm glad Mike pointed out that she didn't.

 

[Quagmire]

oops. didn't notice it either.

 

[Charles]

Does it matter what one uses if it helps the individual keep the faith to their own heart, if they use a resurrectd state, of a cricified state, as long as love and passion are still their, that is all that should matter the same as any faith.

 

[may]

This type of statement amongst others that I've read in literature provided to me by JW are the very reasons that I'm uncomfortable with the religion.

Truly, who are you and those of your faith to tell me that I'm not a true Christian because the cross is an important symbol of my faith?

That's what it is, may...a symbol. It reminds me of one of the most important aspects of my faith...that I'm to carry MY OWN cross and follow Christ...not the world.

The cross is a symbol of the sacrifice that was made so that I can be reconciled with my Heavenly Father.

If you and yours have an issue with that...fine...but how can you claim that I'm not a TRUE Christian?

the early christians did not use symbols in their worship ,because they knew it would be offence to the true God. and yes, you are right it is just a symbol.
First-century Christians, however, held the sacrificial death of Christ in high esteem. Likewise today, although the instrument used to torture and kill Jesus is not to be worshipped, true Christians commemorate Jesus’ death as the means by which God provides salvation to imperfect humans. (Matthew 20:28) This superlative expression of God’s love will bring untold blessings to lovers of truth, including the prospect of everlasting life.—John 17:3; Revelation 21:3, 4.
Suppose a loved one of yours was brutally murdered and the weapon was submitted to the court as evidence. Would you try to gain possession of the murder weapon, take photographs of it, and print many copies for distribution? Would you produce replicas of the weapon in various sizes? Would you then fashion some of them into jewelry? Or would you have these reproductions commercially manufactured and sold to friends and relatives to be venerated? Likely you would be repulsed at the idea! Yet, these very things have been done with the cross!

 

[may]

It is noteworthy that some depictions of Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree. It is also noteworthy that some depict crosses because both were used to crucify people condemned to death. Do you think it really mattered to the condemned?

This idea that Christ really died on a stake instead of a cross comes from the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I'll agree that we should not worship any idols, especially golden ones, but the debate whether it was a cross or stake that Jesus died on has more to do with JW religion trying to set itself apart from other religions instead of finding common ground with them.

or rather getting back to how the early christians worshiped, they did not need symbols in their worship, but many babylonish things have contaminated true worship down through time , and religious symbols are just one of those things . and in these last days God people are out of (babylon the great ) revelation 18;4 this symbolic woman spoken of in the book of revelation is the world wide empire of false religion with all of its babylonish teachings . are you aware that at one time even Jehovahs witnesses used to think the cross was ok to have . but now after realizing just what the cross is ,they have cast it away from them because it does not go along with pure worship . only pure uncontaminated worship is acceptable to the true God ,so Jehovahs witnesses are out of it . we are progressive in many ways . and humble enough to cast things off when Jehovah reveals that things are wrong. many years ago i think i am correct in saying that the bible students used to have a little gold cross on their clothes , but it has been cast away now because it is a babylonian symbol .many things have been revealed in the last days and the true knowledge is now abundant Daniel 13;4

 

[wizanda]

Mat 23:29-31
(29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
(30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
(31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

 

[sojourner]

yes i agree people should have the choice to worship as they want . but did not Jesus himself expose the false teachings of the mainstream of his time , or did he say go ahead worship how you want it doesnt matter if its true or false. i think Jesus exposed false worship. he did not beat about the bush, he was direct and to the point. if it was not in line with Gods ways he made it known. and the religious leaders did not like that at all , nothing changes on that , true followers of christ expose wrong teachings just like Jesus did . he is our example is he not?

Christ is our example. The more so, because he participated in jewish synagogue worship and Jewish Temple worship practices.
Does that mean that our altars should have horns at the four corners, as the Jewish altars did?

 

[may]

Christ is our example. The more so, because he participated in jewish synagogue worship and Jewish Temple worship practices.
Does that mean that our altars should have horns at the four corners, as the Jewish altars did?

alters? dont need phiysical alters.
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. John 3;16

 

[wizanda]

Mat 23:18
(18) And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, they are guilty!

Mat 12:37
(37) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

[sojourner]

alters? dont need phiysical alters.
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. John 3;16

Jesus seemed to like them and approve of them...since he was known to have participated in Jewish Temple worship (which centered around the altar). His first followers (who constituted the early proto-church) seemed to approve of them, since they continued to worship in the Temple following Christ's ascension. A quotation of John 3:16 is not cogent to this particular argument. To clarify my own question, if we are to discern what constitutes authentic worship, should we not take a closer look at the worship in which Jesus, himself, participated and seek to emulate that?

 

[McBell]

May,
would you be so kind as to define exactly what you mean by "True Christian?"

 

[Dream Angel]

Why​

True Christians Do Not Use the Cross in Worship​

THE cross is loved and respected by millions of people. The Encyclopædia Britannica calls the cross "the principal symbol of the Christian religion." Nevertheless, true Christians do not use the cross in worship. Why not?
An important reason is that Jesus Christ did not die on a cross. The Greek word generally translated "cross" is stau·ros´. It basically means "an upright pale or stake." The Companion Bible points out: "[Stau·ros´] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the [New Testament] even to imply two pieces of timber."
In several texts, Bible writers use another word for the instrument of Jesus’ death. It is the Greek word xy´lon. (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) This word simply means "timber" or "a stick, club, or tree."
Explaining why a simple stake was often used for executions, the book Das Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: "Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed."
The most convincing proof of all, however, comes from God’s Word. The apostle Paul says: "Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake ["a tree," King James Version].’" (Galatians 3:13) Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, which clearly refers to a stake, not a cross. Since such a means of execution made the person "a curse," it would not be proper for Christians to decorate their homes with images of Christ impaled.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures." Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.​

Why, then, was this pagan symbol promoted? Apparently, to make it easier for pagans to accept "Christianity." Nevertheless, devotion to any pagan symbol is clearly condemned by the Bible. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) The Scriptures also forbid all forms of idolatry. (Exodus 20:4, 5; 1 Corinthians 10:14) With very good reason, therefore, true Christians do not use the cross in worship.

Hey May,
I do not agree that Jesus did not die on a cross. First things are, the words, "jesus King of the Jews" (or something along those lines!) were written above his head? (I think your teachings agree with this), If he had died on the pole, noone would have been able to see these words because his hands would have been in the way. Therefore we would not have known about these words today!!! Also Jesus had two nails in his hands (one for each), If he had been on a stake he would have only needed one!

Why is the cross pagan, he was a convert he wasnt pagan anymore? What wrong with trying to make friends with pagans by using their apparant symbol - after all you yourselves teach we are supposed to spread the word of God, you cant do that if they wont listen!

A cross is made of wood, which comes from a tree, so it called be called a tree yes, but it doesnt mean to say it was in the form of a cross. A "tree" could have been a chair, a table, a door etc etc!

 

[sojourner]

Maybe a tree would be a better symbol for Christians to use? CONASPEH, the association of churches in Haiti, uses as its symbol an upside down tree, with its roots in heaven and its leaves planted in the earth. This symbolizes that our faith is rooted in Christ, and our growth and productivity occurs here on earth.

 

[may]

Jesus seemed to like them and approve of them...since he was known to have participated in Jewish Temple worship (which centered around the altar). His first followers (who constituted the early proto-church) seemed to approve of them, since they continued to worship in the Temple following Christ's ascension. A quotation of John 3:16 is not cogent to this particular argument. To clarify my own question, if we are to discern what constitutes authentic worship, should we not take a closer look at the worship in which Jesus, himself, participated and seek to emulate that?

Jesus was brought up as a Jew so he would have done all of those things but as we all know we only need to love Jehovah God with our whole soul , mind and heart , and love our neighbour as ourself Jesus put and end to the many things like animal sacrifice. we dont need alters any more .

 

[may]

Hey May,
I do not agree that Jesus did not die on a cross. First things are, the words, "jesus King of the Jews" (or something along those lines!) were written above his head? (I think your teachings agree with this), If he had died on the pole, noone would have been able to see these words because his hands would have been in the way. Therefore we would not have known about these words today!!! Also Jesus had two nails in his hands (one for each), If he had been on a stake he would have only needed one!

Why is the cross pagan, he was a convert he wasnt pagan anymore? What wrong with trying to make friends with pagans by using their apparant symbol - after all you yourselves teach we are supposed to spread the word of God, you cant do that if they wont listen!

A cross is made of wood, which comes from a tree, so it called be called a tree yes, but it doesnt mean to say it was in the form of a cross. A "tree" could have been a chair, a table, a door etc etc!

i never said we shouldnt make a freind of pagans , but i would not take on their form of worship . my nephew is a pagan

 

[may]

Maybe a tree would be a better symbol for Christians to use? CONASPEH, the association of churches in Haiti, uses as its symbol an upside down tree, with its roots in heaven and its leaves planted in the earth. This symbolizes that our faith is rooted in Christ, and our growth and productivity occurs here on earth.

It takes courage to break away from an entrenched religious tradition originating in the mists of pagan antiquity. A good example of such a break is in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, which renders staurós as "torture stake" and the verb stauróo as "impale," not "crucify." This frees from all taint of paganism the precious sacrifice that our Lord and Savior made.