Criticism of the Bahai prophecies from the Tipitaka

[firedragon]

Due to a recent conversation, this being a subject that could be objectively discussed I thought I will open a new thread to do so. There were several claims about the prophecy of Bahaullah cited in the Tipitaka mentioned in this forum that I would like to address. I am no expert on the Bahai scripture, thus I would like to be enlightened if there are any areas to be.

The particular chapter of the Tipitaka in question was the Chakkavatti Sutta where the Bahai's claim is a prophecy of Bahaullah. This is the coming of a so called "Metteyya" or "maithreya" who is an eschatological figure in the Buddhist scripture they believe is yet to come, yet of course the Bahai's claim he has, by the name of Bahaullah. The points I have are as follows: The Bahai claim to prophecy, and the criticism of it, concisely put.

1. The name: Bahaullah means "Glory of God" which I presume stems from the Arabic word Bahaa meaning beauty, glory as in an emanating light. Metteya in its essence means empathy, good will. Mettha. I am not sure if its an official claim that even the meaning of the name can be reconciled but this I state since the claim I have seen, so I am open to correction.

2. Signs of lifespans: I am not sure if the proponent of this theory has read the Chakkavatti Sutta, at least, because it seems like the Sutta has so many things they seem to either missed or not understood. It states that human lifespan was 80,000 and will reduce bit by bit to 10. It was said that during in that time these people perceived time differently so 80k lifespan could have been just 80 years, but then in that case how much would 10 be? a few seconds? So when Bahaullah was born, what was our lifespan on average and could that be reconciled with this text in the Tipitaka? The Sutta simply says that from a maximum of 80,000 years, a human lifespan has now come down to 100 which is the current maximum. Thus, this argument fails every time to say they misunderstood time for some reason. Did they misunderstand 100 as well? Is that also to be divided by 1000? which means the life span is only around 37 days?

3. A Mahana's signature: The Sutta Pitaka is doctrinal, unlike the AbiDhamma Pitaka. It speaks of a monks signature. The first signature taught in the Sutta (I mean specifically Chakkavatti Sutta with the Metteyas coming, exactly there) is "Kamehi Vivichcha" which means "detached from sensuality". Basically, no sex, no thinking of sex, Zilch. Metteyya is supposed to be the Sugatho, Loka vidu, Anuttaro purusadhamma sarathi satthaaa...... He will not have sex, he will not think of sex, he will be the ultimate role model who will promote and preach to his Mahana's to stay away from sex and many, many other things. How would that be reconciled with Bahaullah?

4. The time: Mind you, Maitreya is supposed to be born during the lifespan of a human being is 80,000. And at the time there will be a Sakvithi king. His name would be Shadkha. Who is that king? If life span goes down to 10, and sexual maturity at the age of 5, when is it going to be 80,000?

5. His path: It is this king who gives up all his wealth and the "Gihi GeY" which means the life of a household. Just like the Gautama, he will leave everything including a sexual life, children, family, wife, everything and then he will become Samma Sambudhu Maitreya. He will become Pavidi or a hermit, he will meditate and attain the status of Buddha, the ultimate level of intelligence. So did Bahaullah go through that? Did he live in a palace built by the king "Mahapanada"?

6. Innate Knowledge: Bahai's claim that Bahaullah had innate knowledge. But Maitreya doesnt have innate knowledge. He as I said above leaves his life, meditates and becomes enlightened.

7. His teachings: He will teach the Mahana's to leave their lives and follow in his footsteps, which means complete detachment. No sex, no family, no children, no money. Did Bahaullah have this and did he teach this?

8. The status: Bahaullah is supposed to be a manifestation of the supreme God. I think this will be the most responded to question with some buddhist passage like the Karama sutra, but I am asking about Maitreya. Will not this be the most significant reconciliation? How would that be done? The Chakkavatti Sutta explains that Maitreya will work to be enlightened in order to attain nirvana, not that he was born a manifestation of God.

Edit: As a side note I would like to request the passages Bahaullah himself noted about him being the Maitreya to understand what he said.

Peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@firedragon

What might be interesting to everyone is, the Future Buddha who is a Manifestation of a celestial Buddha known as Amitabha:

I quote Wikipedia:


Amitābha[2] (Sanskrit pronunciation: [ɐmɪˈtaːbʱɐ]), also known as Amida or Amitāyus, is a celestial buddha according to the scriptures of Mahayana Buddhism.


The proper form of Amitābha's name in Sanskrit is Amitābha, masculine, and the nominative singular is Amitābhaḥ. This is a compound of the Sanskrit words amita ("without bound, infinite") and ābhā ("light, splendor"). Consequently, the name is to be interpreted as "he who possesses light without bound, he whose splendor is infinite

Amitābha - Wikipedia


The word Abha, is actually a Bahai Faith word also, and is of the same root as Baha.

Bahais say Allah' abha, when they greet. Meaning God is splendor.
In Bahai faith, every Bahai is to say Allah Abha 95 times everyday.

This word (Abha), is same word as Abha in Buddhis scriptures.

In Bahai scriptures, God had a greatest name. The greatest name is Baha.
Ya Bahaul Abha a phrase in Bahai scriptures, meaning O thou glory of glorious.

My Avatar in RF is actually یا بها الابهی


I will provide my view on some of the points on OP when I get time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1. The name: Bahaullah means "Glory of God" which I presume stems from the Arabic word Bahaa meaning beauty, glory as in an emanating light. Metteya in its essence means empathy, good will. Mettha. I am not sure if its an official claim that even the meaning of the name can be reconciled but this I state since the claim I have seen, so I am open to correction.

On the meaning I quote Wikipedia:


"The name Maitreya is derived from the Sanskrit word maitrī "friendship", which is in turn derived from the noun mitra "friend"."

Maitreya - Wikipedia


Bahaullah often referred to Himself as Friend:

"O servant of God! Turn thou away from the stranger, that thou mayest recognize the Friend."

"O MY FRIENDS! Walk ye in the ways of the good pleasure of the Friend, and know that His pleasure is in the pleasure of His creatures."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 37

As regards to Baha'u'llah, Baha, is of the same root as Abha, in Amitābha, who is the celestial Buddha.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

2. Signs of lifespans: I am not sure if the proponent of this theory has read the Chakkavatti Sutta, at least, because it seems like the Sutta has so many things they seem to either missed or not understood. It states that human lifespan was 80,000 and will reduce bit by bit to 10. It was said that during in that time these people perceived time differently so 80k lifespan could have been just 80 years, but then in that case how much would 10 be? a few seconds? So when Bahaullah was born, what was our lifespan on average and could that be reconciled with this text in the Tipitaka? The Sutta simply says that from a maximum of 80,000 years, a human lifespan has now come down to 100 which is the current maximum. Thus, this argument fails every time to say they misunderstood time for some reason. Did they misunderstand 100 as well? Is that also to be divided by 1000? which means the life span is only around 37 days?

There are some quotes from Buddha in the Buddhism scriptures, which He was speaking of people having very long life spans at the time of Maitreya.
The Bahai scriptures does not refer to these and does not interpret them. So, we don't really have an official Bahai interpretation of these.
But I personally do not think, when Buddha said 80000 years, He meant 80 years. This is probably interpretation of some Buddhists.
He could have meant the life span in terms of Quality of life, and learning sciences and knowledge. Because our age is the age of science, and knowledge, in comparison with someone who lived 2500 years ago, maybe it could be said the amount experiences that we have, or the knowledge We learn everyday is as if someone would have lived 80000 years at the time of Buddha. Just my personal opinion!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

3. A Mahana's signature: The Sutta Pitaka is doctrinal, unlike the AbiDhamma Pitaka. It speaks of a monks signature. The first signature taught in the Sutta (I mean specifically Chakkavatti Sutta with the Metteyas coming, exactly there) is "Kamehi Vivichcha" which means "detached from sensuality". Basically, no sex, no thinking of sex, Zilch. Metteyya is supposed to be the Sugatho, Loka vidu, Anuttaro purusadhamma sarathi satthaaa...... He will not have sex, he will not think of sex, he will be the ultimate role model who will promote and preach to his Mahana's to stay away from sex and many, many other things. How would that be reconciled with Bahaullah?

.

To me that prophecy just means, the Promised One will teach detachment from corrupted desires and lust.

Bahaullah was teaching detachment constantly. Here are some quotes from Bahaullah:

"Detach yourselves, O people, from the world and all its vanities, and heed not the call of such as have disbelieved in God and joined partners with Him."


"Ye have been forbidden to commit murder or adultery, or to engage in backbiting or calumny; shun ye, then, what hath been prohibited in the holy Books and Tablets."


An example from a Prayer by Bahaullah:

"I beseech Thee, by Thyself and by whatsoever is of Thee, to grant that I may help Thy Cause and speak of Thy praise, and set my heart on the sanctuary of Thy glory, and detach myself from all that pertaineth not unto Thee. No God is there beside Thee, the God of power, the God of glory and wisdom."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 164-165


"O people of the world! Follow not the promptings of the self, for it summoneth insistently to wickedness and lust; follow, rather, Him Who is the Possessor of all created things, Who biddeth you to show forth piety, and manifest the fear of God. "

Baha'i Reference Library: Advanced Search

Bahaullah lived a righteous life.

Marriage was a teaching of Bahaullah, but having sexual relationships outside of marriage was forbidden by Bahaullah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

4. The time: Mind you, Maitreya is supposed to be born during the lifespan of a human being is 80,000. And at the time there will be a Sakvithi king. His name would be Shadkha. Who is that king? If life span goes down to 10, and sexual maturity at the age of 5, when is it going to be 80,000?

.

It is said that Maitreya would appear at a time when there is a king.
In Buddhis scriptures there are allusions that this Kingship is spiritual, not worldly.

In my view, this King is an allusion to the Bab.



Also in Book of Iqan, Bahaullah wrote this about the Bab:

"Yea, the sovereignty attributed to the Qá’im and spoken of in the scriptures, is a reality, the truth of which none can doubt. This sovereignty, however, is not the sovereignty which the minds of men have falsely imagined. ....by sovereignty is meant the all-encompassing, all-pervading power which is inherently exercised by the Qá’im whether or not He appear to the world clothed in the majesty of earthly dominion. This is solely dependent upon the will and pleasure of the Qá’im Himself."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 97-120


Bahaullah referred to the Bab as the King of Messengers.

"Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know."

Tablet of Ahmad

 

[firedragon]

On the meaning I quote Wikipedia:


"The name Maitreya is derived from the Sanskrit word maitrī "friendship", which is in turn derived from the noun mitra "friend"."

Maitreya - Wikipedia


Bahaullah often referred to Himself as Friend:

"O servant of God! Turn thou away from the stranger, that thou mayest recognize the Friend."

"O MY FRIENDS! Walk ye in the ways of the good pleasure of the Friend, and know that His pleasure is in the pleasure of His creatures."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 37

As regards to Baha'u'llah, Baha, is of the same root as Abha, in Amitābha, who is the celestial Buddha.

People call themselves a lot of things. But the claim was about the name, not what someone calls himself randomly in a sentence. So this is not relevant. Tell me, did Bahaullah call himself Akram rasool more, or as this "friend"?

 

[firedragon]

To me that prophecy just means, the Promised One will teach detachment from corrupted desires and lust.

Bahaullah was teaching detachment constantly. Here are some quotes from Bahaullah:

"Detach yourselves, O people, from the world and all its vanities, and heed not the call of such as have disbelieved in God and joined partners with Him."


"Ye have been forbidden to commit murder or adultery, or to engage in backbiting or calumny; shun ye, then, what hath been prohibited in the holy Books and Tablets."


An example from a Prayer by Bahaullah:

"I beseech Thee, by Thyself and by whatsoever is of Thee, to grant that I may help Thy Cause and speak of Thy praise, and set my heart on the sanctuary of Thy glory, and detach myself from all that pertaineth not unto Thee. No God is there beside Thee, the God of power, the God of glory and wisdom."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 164-165


"O people of the world! Follow not the promptings of the self, for it summoneth insistently to wickedness and lust; follow, rather, Him Who is the Possessor of all created things, Who biddeth you to show forth piety, and manifest the fear of God. "

Baha'i Reference Library: Advanced Search

Bahaullah lived a righteous life.

Marriage was a teaching of Bahaullah, but having sexual relationships outside of marriage was forbidden by Bahaullah.

You should read the Tipitaka. This is not relevant.

 

[firedragon]

It is said that Maitreya would appear at a time when there is a king.
In Buddhis scriptures there are allusions that this Kingship is spiritual, not worldly.

In my view, this King is an allusion to the Bab.



Also in Book of Iqan, Bahaullah wrote this about the Bab:

"Yea, the sovereignty attributed to the Qá’im and spoken of in the scriptures, is a reality, the truth of which none can doubt. This sovereignty, however, is not the sovereignty which the minds of men have falsely imagined. ....by sovereignty is meant the all-encompassing, all-pervading power which is inherently exercised by the Qá’im whether or not He appear to the world clothed in the majesty of earthly dominion. This is solely dependent upon the will and pleasure of the Qá’im Himself."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 97-120


Bahaullah referred to the Bab as the King of Messengers.

"Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know."

Tablet of Ahmad

Read the next one. And please read the Tipitaka, Chakkavatti Sutta. Dont just give some random answer without knowing what it says. It is obvious you are completely providing strawman answers to the questions, and has never read the chapter that I am referring to. It seems like no one has.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

5. His path: It is this king who gives up all his wealth and the "Gihi GeY" which means the life of a household. Just like the Gautama, he will leave everything including a sexual life, children, family, wife, everything and then he will become Samma Sambudhu Maitreya. He will become Pavidi or a hermit, he will meditate and attain the status of Buddha, the ultimate level of intelligence. So did Bahaullah go through that? Did he live in a palace built by the king "Mahapanada"?

.

We cannot be sure of the accuracy of Buddhism scriptures and specially their interpretations.

We should really quote from the Buddha Himself directly.

However there is an interesting parallel to this prophecy.

Bahaullah was from a very wealthy family. And even they offered Him a good position in government, but He said no to all that luxury life. Instead, He was imprisoned and exiled for decades.




Born in Tehran, Iran on 12 November, 1817, Mirza Husayn-‘Alí enjoyed all the advantages conferred by noble birth. From a very early age, He displayed extraordinary knowledge and wisdom.


The city of Tehran, Iran, where Bahá’u’lláh was born.

As a young man, rather than pursuing a career in government service as His father had done, Mirza Husayn-‘Alí chose to devote His energies to the care of the poor. He showed no interest in seeking position or prominence.


The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[InvestigateTruth]

6. Innate Knowledge: Bahai's claim that Bahaullah had innate knowledge. But Maitreya doesnt have innate knowledge. He as I said above leaves his life, meditates and becomes enlightened.

In Bahai view, Buddha was a Manifestation of God, and the moment He was born, He knew all things, so was also Bahaullah.

But just as Bahaullah did not reveal His station too early, the Buddha also did not reveal His station all the sudden. They did that gradually so people do not get too disturbed. They gradually made people ready, and when it was the right time, they revealed their station as someone who is All-knowing.

Even in Buddhism scriptures, there are evidences that Buddha from beginning was aware of His Station:


It is said that immediately after Gautama's birth, he stood up, took seven steps north, and uttered:

"I am chief of the world,

Eldest in the world. This is the last birth.

There will be [henceforth for me] no more re-becoming."[6]

Furthermore, every place the baby Gautama placed his foot, a lotus flower bloomed.[7]

Miracles of Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia




Being the last and oldest in the world is claiming to be God, for God was before everyone else!



There are also some evidence from Bahaullahs childhood, showing He was extraordinary.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

7. His teachings: He will teach the Mahana's to leave their lives and follow in his footsteps, which means complete detachment. No sex, no family, no children, no money. Did Bahaullah have this and did he teach this?

.

This was related to early stages of Buddha's ministry.
If Buddha meant to say, no one to have sex or family, the human race would be vanished. But what Buddha was talking was about early stages of establishment of His Religion.

Mind you, Jesus also encouraged early Christians to spend their life for teaching His Faith, and even not to marry. This is why you see, some priests still believe they shouldn't get married.


Baha'u'llah said the same thing:

"Consider these martyrs of unquestionable sincerity, to whose truthfulness testifieth the explicit text of the Book, and all of whom, as thou hast witnessed, have sacrificed their life, their substance, their wives, their children, their all, and ascended unto the loftiest chambers of Paradise. " Book of Iqan


Detachment is one the main teachings of Bahaullah. But still He said enjoy the good things of life, if Lawful by God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

8. The status: Bahaullah is supposed to be a manifestation of the supreme God. I think this will be the most responded to question with some buddhist passage like the Karama sutra, but I am asking about Maitreya. Will not this be the most significant reconciliation? How would that be done? The Chakkavatti Sutta explains that Maitreya will work to be enlightened in order to attain nirvana, not that he was born a manifestation of God.
.

In Bahai view all Manifestations of God, did not reveal their true station too early. But all of them were aware of their station, and were All-knowing, All-powerful from beginning.
For example there are some extraordinary accounts regarding Jesus childhood, in Christ sources. Quran gives one example that when Jesus was a baby He was talking and knew He would die, and He would be rise again.
In Bahai sources there are extraordinary accounts about The Bab and Baha'u'llah childhood.

 

[firedragon]

In Bahai view all Manifestations of God, did not reveal their true station too early. But all of them were aware of their station, and were All-knowing, All-powerful from beginning.
For example there are some extraordinary accounts regarding Jesus childhood, in Christ sources. Quran gives one example that when Jesus was a baby He was talking and knew He would die, and He would be rise again.
In Bahai sources there are extraordinary accounts about The Bab and Baha'u'llah childhood.

That was not relevant to the question.

 

[firedragon]

We cannot be sure of the accuracy of Buddhism scriptures and specially their interpretations.

We should really quote from the Buddha Himself directly.

However there is an interesting parallel to this prophecy.

Bahaullah was from a very wealthy family. And even they offered Him a good position in government, but He said no to all that luxury life. Instead, He was imprisoned and exiled for decades.




Born in Tehran, Iran on 12 November, 1817, Mirza Husayn-‘Alí enjoyed all the advantages conferred by noble birth. From a very early age, He displayed extraordinary knowledge and wisdom.


The city of Tehran, Iran, where Bahá’u’lláh was born.

As a young man, rather than pursuing a career in government service as His father had done, Mirza Husayn-‘Alí chose to devote His energies to the care of the poor. He showed no interest in seeking position or prominence.


The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

So you dont trust the Tripitaka? Okay. Thats the end of discussion then because the topic is on Tipitaka specifically so this thread is not relevant anymore.

 

[firedragon]

This was related to early stages of Buddha's ministry.
If Buddha meant to say, no one to have sex or family, the human race would be vanished. But what Buddha was talking was about early stages of establishment of His Religion.

Mind you, Jesus also encouraged early Christians to spend their life for teaching His Faith, and even not to marry. This is why you see, some priests still believe they shouldn't get married.


Baha'u'llah said the same thing:

"Consider these martyrs of unquestionable sincerity, to whose truthfulness testifieth the explicit text of the Book, and all of whom, as thou hast witnessed, have sacrificed their life, their substance, their wives, their children, their all, and ascended unto the loftiest chambers of Paradise. " Book of Iqan


Detachment is one the main teachings of Bahaullah. But still He said enjoy the good things of life, if Lawful by God.

Absolutely not. There is no early stages of teachings and latter stages of teachings in the scripture I am referring to.

 

[firedragon]

In Bahai view, Buddha was a Manifestation of God, and the moment He was born, He knew all things, so was also Bahaullah.

Yep. So the Tipitaka is in conflict with that teaching.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

People call themselves a lot of things. But the claim was about the name, not what someone calls himself randomly in a sentence. So this is not relevant. Tell me, did Bahaullah call himself Akram rasool more, or as this "friend"?

A lot of times, the scriptures are alluding to titles and also the Attributes, rather than a literal name.
These are the titles that the Promised One presents Himself as!

For example in the Quran it is written that Jesus said after Him a prophet comes whose name is Ahmad.

But Prophet of Islam was Muhammad.
No body called Him Ahmad.
It was Muhammad Himself who gave this name to Himself in the Quran!

Moreover, there is no mention of Ahmad in Bible. These are just attributes, and meaningful words rather than just literally a name.

For example it is written in Bible:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

It is obvious these are not the real names, but the titles that Promised One would Present Himself with.

In Bahai view, Buddha was also speaking of titles that the Promised One calls Himself.

 

[firedragon]

A lot of times, the scriptures are alluding to titles and also the Attributes, rather than a literal name.

Okay. So you dont believe it is "alluding" to the name.

Fine.

 

[firedragon]

But Prophet of Islam was Muhammad.
No body called Him Ahmad.

This is not about Muhammed, the Quran or the Bible. Thats not relevant.