Criticism of Islam.

[Brinne]

Give me an example of a religion where "colonialism" incited extremist beliefs has lead to the uprising of entire nations being engulfed by theocratic barbarism with literally hundreds of religiously inspired militant groups carrying out terrorist attack after terrorist attack.

Sorry it just doesn't add up.

Colonialism, sure.
But there is something else.
It's colonialism + something extra.


How do you propose to do that to end the religious barbarism in all those middle eastern countries?

Where in the world is there a comparable situation?
It's not like these middle eastern countries were the only victims of imperialism and colonialism.

Comparable situations have occured in history as a reaction to Imperialism and colonialism. State Shinto is a great example; where it’s extremist and racist tendencies sprang forth from the Japanese desire to “rid East Asia of Western Imperialism.” Yet no one is claiming Shintoism as inherently barbaric.

Myanmar and Thailand also have a history of Buddhist militarism towards ethnic and religious minorities with the goal of forced assimilation.

So extremism isn’t solely an Islamic issue. Christian extremism also lead to numerous atrocities - specifically throughout the African continent.

You still haven’t answered the main issue I have with your argument: If violence, terrorism, and “barbarism” are inherent to Islam why do we not see a constant of this type of modern extremism in the historic Islamic world? Surely if it’s intrinsically Barbaric should these historical societies not also be inherently barbaric?

 

[firedragon]

I didn't say Militant Islam was an American ideology. I said that Militant Islam was an American label for an ideology that has become a problem within Islam.

Yeah still you are saying its American. Not relevant to the rest of the world. You should realise that America is not the whole world.

And yes, I expect Imams do to sermons against this ideology. If they don't, by their inactions, they are helping it spread. "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Haha. Imams dont have to preach things they have no clue about. They dont believe in your politics. But they did hear about your politics and hatred for Islam etc etc from the TV. So after that, not just imams (which is also a phrase you dont understand) but worldwide muslim scholars got together and made historical fatawa's against murderous ISIS.

Thats why you should simply ask.

 

[firedragon]

- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".

Did your cut and paste miss the verse 2:192? How come? Is that like someone suddenly became blind?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And just why do you think they "wish to use violent means"? You completely ignored the verses I gave you to back up my claim. Here are a few more for you to pretend don't exist:

- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".
- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".
- 22:58 "Those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision".
- 49:15 "The believers ... strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah".
- 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them".
- 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure".
- 61:10 through 61:13 "Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives. He will admit you to Gardens. and other things you love, help from God and a nigh victory".
- 48:16 "You shall be called against a people possessed of great might to fight them".
- 48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers".
- 5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified".
- 5:35 - "O ye who believe! ... strive in His way".
- 5:54 "mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way".
- 9;5, "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
- 9:13 "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
- 9:14 "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
- 9:16 "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
- 9:19 "strives in the cause of Allah".
- 9:20 "The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:29 "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians]".
- 9:30 "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
- 9:36 "Fight against the disbelievers".
- 9:38 "What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?".
- 9:39 "If you do not go forth, He will punish you".
- 9:41 "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".
- 9:44 "Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God".
- 9:45 "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].
- 9:52 "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)?".
- 9:73 "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".
- 9:81 "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
- 9:86 "Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger".
- 9:88 "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:93 "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption [from fighting] despite their ability".
- 9:111 "Surely Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain".
- 9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you"

This is known as dumping. The object is not really to engage the interlocuter in discussion, but to so overwhelm them that they will give up. I am not going to respond to all the items in your long list.

I will say that Muslims have told me that, for example, the word fight refers to a spiritual fight. I think most of your verses can be explained in that sort of way. But again, I'm not even going to read your list.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah still you are saying its American. Not relevant to the rest of the world. You should realise that America is not the whole world.

If you can't understand that an American label is not the same thing as an American phenomenon, I don't know what to say to you.

 

[England my lionheart]

See. You thinking is not reality.

Well it’s called history actually.

 

[firedragon]

If you can't understand that an American label is not the same thing as an American phenomenon, I don't know what to say to you.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

Well it’s called history actually.

Whats history?

 

[England my lionheart]

Whats history?

What I posted.

 

[firedragon]

What I posted.

About the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and claiming that is definition of Islam globallY?

Is that what you call history? Please elaborate.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Right. So if its an American thing, why are you asking if people discuss it in mosques? Do you even know that America has 1% Muslims, which is about 3.5 million, and there are billions of people around the world?

If you want to ask a genuine question, ask it with out any presuppositions. And I will honour your question with a decent answer. Dont impose your presuppositions on me or anything else which just looks like a question.

Please try and understand.

The name perhaps originated in america.
The thing it refers to DOES NOT.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Only hypocrites will say Islam doesn't teach to fight in this century. We need to overthrow all dictators, and be ready to fight them if needed.

And replace them with dictators that your particular denomination approves of?

Quran teaches to overthrow oppressive governments and dictators.

And replace them with what, exactly?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Anyone who says in this century, all fighting verses are abrogated is also a moron or a paid CIA agent.

LOL!!!!

The only way Muslims will get out of the disgrace and afflictions they are in, is if they unite to fight of all dictators and unite as one nation under one Islamic government that get's elected and respects people right to interpret Islam freely and doesn't impose a sect upon everyone.

The bolded part directly contradicts all the other nonsense you spewed.

Imposing an interpretation and sect is exactly what you are advocating

Also, it should allow freedom of religion to the best of it's ability in general.

Then it shouldn't be an "islamic government" in the first place!!!!!!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Comparable situations have occured in history as a reaction to Imperialism and colonialism. State Shinto is a great example; where it’s extremist and racist tendencies sprang forth from the Japanese desire to “rid East Asia of Western Imperialism.” Yet no one is claiming Shintoism as inherently barbaric.

And yet today, Japan is one of the most peaceful pacifist countries in the world.

Myanmar and Thailand also have a history of Buddhist militarism towards ethnic and religious minorities with the goal of forced assimilation.

True.

So extremism isn’t solely an Islamic issue

Never said it was.

Christian extremism also lead to numerous atrocities - specifically throughout the African continent.

Yes. Abrahamic religions in general are particularly dangerous when it is followed to the T.
With Islam imo being the worst of them.

You still haven’t answered the main issue I have with your argument: If violence, terrorism, and “barbarism” are inherent to Islam why do we not see a constant of this type of modern extremism in the historic Islamic world?

Islam was pretty much spread by the sword.

But I never said they are "inherent" to Islam.
At best, I have hinted that Islam provides a breeding ground for it. More so then many other religions.

When I read the bible, I see the same species of barbarism as I see in the Quran. The difference is that judeo-christian culture had an enlightment and grew out of it. Our ancestors pretty much kicked the church out of public life and out of government. Islam however, is far more politically involved. Purely by the tenants of the religion itself, it is much harder to divorce islam from public life and government then it is to do so with christianity. In fact, there's almost no call in the bible for involvement in politics.

Surely if it’s intrinsically Barbaric should these historical societies not also be inherently barbaric?

They were. Just like christian theocracies were.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yeah still you are saying its American. Not relevant to the rest of the world. You should realise that America is not the whole world.

You are being incredibly intellectually dishonest, as usual.

The LABEL is american. The thing being labeled IS NOT.

Haha. Imams dont have to preach things they have no clue about. They dont believe in your politics. But they did hear about your politics and hatred for Islam etc etc from the TV. So after that, not just imams (which is also a phrase you dont understand) but worldwide muslim scholars got together and made historical fatawa's against murderous ISIS.

How did that work out for them?

 

[Brinne]

And yet today, Japan is one of the most peaceful pacifist countries in the world.



True.



Never said it was.




Yes. Abrahamic religions in general are particularly dangerous when it is followed to the T.
With Islam imo being the worst of them.



Islam was pretty much spread by the sword.

But I never said they are "inherent" to Islam.
At best, I have hinted that Islam provides a breeding ground for it. More so then many other religions.

When I read the bible, I see the same species of barbarism as I see in the Quran. The difference is that judeo-christian culture had an enlightment and grew out of it. Our ancestors pretty much kicked the church out of public life and out of government. Islam however, is far more politically involved. Purely by the tenants of the religion itself, it is much harder to divorce islam from public life and government then it is to do so with christianity. In fact, there's almost no call in the bible for involvement in politics.



They were. Just like christian theocracies were.

How exactly does Islam provide a breeding ground for it? Moreso than Buddhism or any other religion which had exercised institutional power on some level?

And no; the historical Islamic states were in no way barbaric - that’s incredibly disingenuous to say. Those societies differ greatly from say the actions of ISIS and extremist groups today. As evidenced by the relative age of scientific progress and equity in Andalusia for a period of time.

 

[stevecanuck]

This is known as dumping. The object is not really to engage the interlocuter in discussion, but to so overwhelm them that they will give up. I am not going to respond to all the items in your long list.

I previously said, "To condemn militancy in Islam is to directly negate the word of Allah. Here are three verses by way of example. Please tell me how Muslims are supposed to condemn militancy in the face of these:

61:4 - Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.
9:29 - Fight those who do not believe in Allah .....
9:111 - Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain".

You completely blew off my request to consider those verses and to explain how Muslims are expected to ignore them. So, since you seemed unimpressed with a mere three verses, I felt you needed more examples. You can call it dumping if you want to continue to ignore the Qur'an's calls to arms, but I call it backing up my claim.

 

[stevecanuck]

I will say that Muslims have told me that, for example, the word fight refers to a spiritual fight. I think most of your verses can be explained in that sort of way. But again, I'm not even going to read your list.

They are referring to the word 'jihad', which means 'struggle'. It can be used to mean either spiritual OR physical struggle. It takes context to determine which is appropriate for any given verse. I can assure you that it's referring to fighting in the majority of verses. Here is an explanation I wrote on the subject (I mention that I wrote it only because I would otherwise be accused of doing a cut and paste by certain people):

Surah 9 contains the following verses in which conjugations of 'jihad' (struggle) are clearly used interchangeably with those of 'qatl' (kill/fight), and all in the context of fighting for Allah and Islam. I have shown in parentheses whether 'qatl' or 'jihad' was used:

9:12 - But if, after coming to terms with you, they break their oaths and revile your belief, fight (qatl) the leaders of the disbelief - for they have no oaths - in order that they will desist.
9:13 - Will you not fight (qatl) against those who have broken their oaths and conspired to expel the Messenger?
9:14 - Fight (qatl) them, Allah will punish them with your hands and degrade them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the chests of a believing nation.
9:16 - Did you suppose that you would be left before Allah has known those of you who fought (jihad) and did not take a confidant other than Allah, His Messenger, and the believers? Allah is Aware of what you do.
9:19 - Do you consider giving drink to the pilgrims and inhabiting the Sacred Mosque are the same as one who believes in Allah and the Last Day, and struggles (jihad) in the Way of Allah? These are not held equal by Allah. Allah does not guide the harm doers. (In this case 'jihad' is interpreted in most translations as 'struggle' or 'strive', but is used in the context of fighting. Here, Allah is telling the faithful that simply cheering and praying will not please him as much as fighting).
9:20 - Those who believe, have migrated, and struggle (jihad) in the Way of Allah with their wealth and their persons are greater in rank with Allah. It is they who are the winners (continuation of 9:19).
9:24 - Say: 'If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear will not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than Allah, His Messenger and the struggling (jihad) for His Way, then wait until Allah shall bring His command. Allah does not guide the evildoers'.
9:25- Allah has helped you on many a battle field. In the Battle of Hunain, when your numbers were pleasing you they availed you nothing; the earth, for all its vastness, seemed to close in upon you and you turned your backs and fled. (I've included this to prove that warfare is the topic at hand, lest anyone tries to tell us Mohamed was organizing a bake sale).
9:29 - Fight (qatl) those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated.
9:39 - If you do not go forth, He will punish you with a painful punishment and replace you by another nation. You will in no way harm Him; for Allah has power over all things. (This shows Allah/Mohamed is still cajoling and threatening the faithful to lay down their lives for him.)
9:41 - Whether lightly or heavily, march on and struggle (jihad) for the Way of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you know.
9:44 - Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day will not ask your permission so that they may struggle (jihad) with their wealth and themselves. Allah knows best the righteous.

Notice that 'qatl' is the root word for the first three verses above, but gives way to 'jihad' in the next four, reverts to 'qatl' in the infamous 9:29, then goes back to 'jihad' by 9:41, proving that the two are used interchangeably.

 

[stevecanuck]

How exactly does Islam provide a breeding ground for it? Moreso than Buddhism or any other religion which had exercised institutional power on some level?

Because the Qur'an explicitly says that Muslims have to fight to get into heaven - 9:111 - Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed,

 

[stevecanuck]

And no; the historical Islamic states were in no way barbaric - that’s incredibly disingenuous to say.

The fact that the Islamic army conquered its way across north Africa and ended up fighting in France makes that a false statement.