Criticism of Islam.

[firedragon]

None of that had anything to do with the Qur'an encouraging the arts etc. Again, it was individuals that created advancements, not the religion. There is nothing in the Qur'an to either encourage or discourage it.

You are right. The Quran does not mention arts etc. There are some people who say the Quran doesnt speak of HIV and COVID.

But the Quran says repeatedly "Thaakiloona". Many verses. Every time it speaks of nature, night and day, Fissamaawathi wal ardha, etc etc etc.

That is the foundation of Islam according to the Qur'an. Reasoning process. Use your reasoning prowess. Those who use their reasoning prowess. Every time it encourages you to use your reasoning prowess.

You probably know this already.

 

[firedragon]

Allah didn't have time to tell prophets all because of life is short . Allah would of said ''once the outsiders be good we must be equally as good as to not shame ourselves and become their history'' .

No. There is nothing like that.

 

[England my lionheart]

No problem.

Now you said "Muhammed said" right? Where did you get that from? why do you believe it to be true?

From a well known Hadith 73 sects which I’m sure you know,afaik it’s authentic according to many scholars.

 

[firedragon]

From a well known Hadith 73 sects which I’m sure you know,afaik it’s authentic according to many scholars.

So why do you think its true? See, I know that many Muslims think its true. But why do you think its true?

Do you take it at face value? Do you believe everything Muslims say is true?

 

[England my lionheart]

So why do you think its true? See, I know that many Muslims think its true. But why do you think its true?

Do you take it at face value? Do you believe everything Muslims say is true?

Not really but there are many experts who believe it’s true,obviously I’m not one of them so I’m taking the word of them.

 

[firedragon]

Not really but there are many experts who believe it’s true,obviously I’m not one of them so I’m taking the word of them.

See, the problem with that kind of thing is, these experts say that it is also true that Muhammed flew on a winged horse. Do you believe that also?

 

[England my lionheart]

See, the problem with that kind of thing is, these experts say that it is also true that Muhammed flew on a winged horse. Do you believe that also?

Good point but different,the Hadith reports what Muhammad said,there’s no magic involved just a human saying something.

 

[firedragon]

Good point but different,the Hadith reports what Muhammad said,there’s no magic involved just a human saying something.

Okay. That is also a fair point. So other hadith about him flying a horse etc are lies. But you still believe it is what Muhammed said? How do you know that they were exactly what Muhammed said? Do you believe all of them are what Muhammed said?

 

[Muffled]

If Christians would blow themselves out killing women and children because of God, I would submit them to the same test. However, Christians, unlike Muslims, have been disciplined by the enlightenment, and are therefore become quite harmless.

Ciao

- viole

I believe a lot of people who thought of themselves as Christians were not and that is why they were influenced by their own sinful passions. The same goes for adherents of Islam.

 

[Muffled]

Good point but different,the Hadith reports what Muhammad said,there’s no magic involved just a human saying something.

I believe Hadiths are unreliable. I believe the source is man not God.

 

[viole]

I believe a lot of people who thought of themselves as Christians were not and that is why they were influenced by their own sinful passions. The same goes for adherents of Islam.

Well, opening a history book will show you exactly the contrary. I would say that Christianity in Europe has been a calamity that caused a lot of misery and suffering. And stopped cultural and scientific advancement for more than 1000 years, because of a believe that has the same evidence as astrology.

And without enlightenment, and some revolutions chopping some heads of some clergy members, reducing thereby its power, it would be today as evil as Islam, if not more.

Ciao

- viole

 

[England my lionheart]

I believe Hadiths are unreliable. I believe the source is man not God.

There’s no argument to that from me.

 

[Link]

Hadiths are a minefield with beautiful treasures and flowers. There are much treasures but mixed with poisons. Ilmel Rijaal is heavily biased and is not accurate information about hadiths from my research. Neither Sunni or Shiite system is good. They are unreliable and quite chaotic in the way they analyze and attribute trustworthiness and reliability.

The best way to approach hadiths, is to give the sent ones from God a chance to prove things through insights. The way for it to be proven, is either the hadith is long enough to meet the criteria "it does not befit them nor are they able to (fabricate the like of it)" about dark forces not being able and "they are far from the hearing..." or if it's short or long mixed with some lies, to refer it to Quran and reasoning.

At the end, hadiths and Sunnah is meant to compliment Quran and is not to be seen independently. Quran is also not at the mercy of human made verification system of reliability of chains of men. That's a lie that humans ought to stop believing no matter how united the Muslims are on it.

Every true hadith is found in Quran and every true interpretation of Quran is found some form of a hadith. They are both completely references to each other. Then there are bad interpretations of Quran and there is also fake hadiths. Ilmel rijaal has failed in that regard and is not reliable.

Go to hadiths without that, and insights to Quran open up.

 

[Muffled]

The verses about fighting are all conditional that you are at war with certain people but not through you being the instigator, and that permission is given because people are oppressed and the situation is right for fighting.

God teaches fighting and it's noble, but where the situation is right and people are on defending themselves.

He never allows it as a means of oppressing others.

I believe we are at war with the terrorists and justifiably so. The only way this war will ever end will be when Hamas makes peace with Israel.

 

[Link]

I believe we are at war with the terrorists and justifiably so. The only way this war will ever end will be when Hamas makes peace with Israel.

Hamas should make peace with Israel but only with right of Palestinians to return, and Iran advocation is that it becomes one democracy, not a two state solution but Palestinians if they wish a two state solution they can. But in my view, the Apartheid state has to end, and one state solution where it will be hard, but it must happen, is that Palestinians have the right to return and Israelis and Palestinians live together under one democratic government.

It's not that Hamas doesn't want peace, is that they are bullied to unacceptable two state solution where they have hardly anything. They won't compromise to that.

 

[Link]

I believe we are at war with the terrorists and justifiably so.

You are at war with true Islam in reality, it's the reason why you fund Wahabi Islam in Saudi Arabia but oppose Iran and other movements. There is a reason why ISIS was created by Obama and Trump murdered the man who put a stop and end to ISIS activities in Iraq and most of it in Syria.

Disbelievers tend to be oppressive towards believers per Quran. It's not necessary they be that and can cease their injustice, it's just it's highly likely because of their hate of God's light and opposition to the truth of his religion and proofs therein.

 

[England my lionheart]

Okay. That is also a fair point. So other hadith about him flying a horse etc are lies. But you still believe it is what Muhammed said? How do you know that they were exactly what Muhammed said? Do you believe all of them are what Muhammed said?

I think I know where this is going,it’s difficult even for Muslims to agree what he said,oral traditions and all,there some things that don’t quite add up,there have been more than 73 sects since he was around so there’s a possibility it’s not,like many Hadith,it doesn’t really matter to me.

 

[firedragon]

I think I know where this is going,it’s difficult even for Muslims to agree what he said,oral traditions and all,there some things that don’t quite add up,there have been more than 73 sects since he was around so there’s a possibility it’s not,like many Hadith,it doesn’t really matter to me.

If it doesn't really matter to you, dont quote it. If you dont believe its true, dont quote it.

I know that quoting things to attack some theology picked up off the internet is a habitual thing. But try not to do that.

Just for your information, the hadith about 73 sects is having a mid chain narration that Muslims call thadhlees. I dont think you really care about these things but I will say that anyway. So the bottomline is these ahadith that has that kind of narration is not considered Sarih. (I said Sarih, not Sahih). Many atheists dont know any of this but just blurt out things like "muslims believe it" just to create an argument but they really dont know what they are doing. I would request you to grow beyond that kind of polemics. These are tricks played by someone else and you are repeating it. I can see you have honest intentions but dont blindly follow others.

A thadhlees is done by what traditional muslims call a Mudhallith who makes up chains when he doesn't know who narrated it. So though some muslims believe these things, scholars have nuances they consider. Also what you should know is that the number seven in Arabic is Sabah and is used like a "number". So when people say numbers like 73, it is not necessarily a specific number. It could also be to say "a large number".

There is also the Islamic concept of Taaweel al masaara which means understanding of things like this will grow with time and place.

Bottomline is, its better not to just make some comment you have heard of on the internet. I thought I will tell you this because maybe you are a person who can think.

Cheers.

 

[England my lionheart]

If it doesn't really matter to you, dont quote it. If you dont believe its true, dont quote it.

I know that quoting things to attack some theology picked up off the internet is a habitual thing. But try not to do that.

Just for your information, the hadith about 73 sects is having a mid chain narration that Muslims call thadhlees. I dont think you really care about these things but I will say that anyway. So the bottomline is these ahadith that has that kind of narration is not considered Sarih. (I said Sarih, not Sahih). Many atheists dont know any of this but just blurt out things like "muslims believe it" just to create an argument but they really dont know what they are doing. I would request you to grow beyond that kind of polemics. These are tricks played by someone else and you are repeating it. I can see you have honest intentions but dont blindly follow others.

A thadhlees is done by what traditional muslims call a Mudhallith who makes up chains when he doesn't know who narrated it. So though some muslims believe these things, scholars have nuances they consider. Also what you should know is that the number seven in Arabic is Sabah and is used like a "number". So when people say numbers like 73, it is not necessarily a specific number. It could also be to say "a large number".

There is also the Islamic concept of Taaweel al masaara which means understanding of things like this will grow with time and place.

Bottomline is, its better not to just make some comment you have heard of on the internet. I thought I will tell you this because maybe you are a person who can think.

Cheers.

As I said I’m not an Islamic scholar but I’ve heard many boast that there are more than 1.5 billion Muslims in the world,but in reality not following the same islam and that’s why I asked “which islam are we talking about”,it’s fine if you have no answer as it’s standard on here.

Cheers

 

[firedragon]

As I said I’m not an Islamic scholar but I’ve heard many boast that there are more than 1.5 billion Muslims in the world,but in reality not following the same islam and that’s why I asked “which islam are we talking about”,it’s fine if you have no answer as it’s standard on here.

Cheers

I dont say that you have to be a scholar.

Anyway, what you say is true. There is no one islam. There is no one of anything to be frank. But this thread was opened to address Islam openly. So what ever you have as criticism, you can do it with critical analysis.

But let me tell you something. No Muslim scholar in the whole world, that I have come across, heard of or even remotely read of ever believes all ahadith so strongly. I know some Muslims believe in some hadith vehemently but still, you are a person of critical thinking. So when you propose a hadith, and someone proposes an argument, since you have that critical thinking prowess you can hear it out and make an analysis. There is no other choice. No one should be in a position where he accepts or rejects anything or something without critical analysis.

I hope you understand.