critical thinking vs faith

[Quantrill]

Did I miss it?...the line drawn....

Faith is a manner of mind and heart going in what direction?...the afterlife.

Evidence for the afterlife...good luck with that....
Therefore ...faith.

Having made the decision to believe, the critical thinking is then turned to expectation.

Want to walk with angels?....speak and perform as they would.
It makes it easier for them to ask you to follow....when you show you are willing.

Critical thought aimed at the next life?....of course....and required.
Do you expect to stand well in heaven when you've not made some....
critical considerations?

The Christian doesn't 'choose' to believe. He believes. You can't make yourself believe something you don't.

Quantrill

 

[waitasec]

The Christian doesn't 'choose' to believe. He believes.

i will use this as an example of critical thinking vs faith (a belief that requires no proof)

in this belief, that requires no proof, it does require the absence of "choice" as proof
that is the critical thinking element of this statement.

now a critical thinker from the get go would say something like this;
belief is a verb, it is something you choose to do as the criteria for belief has been satisfied
is that a statement of fact?

You can't make yourself believe something you don't.

this is a doosey.
the belief that requires no proof has nothing but proof in this statement while using the previous one as the context. as it claims...
one can not act by choosing to implement the criteria for belief...because belief is and that is where the belief (that requires no proof) takes over by ruling out any and all control from the believer who has set the criteria for belief in the 1st place.

 

[zenzero]

Friend waitasec,

are you rephrasing my question?

what types of problems can arise when one does apply faith (a belief that requires no proof) in the sphere of critical thinking? [your question]
When critical thinking is involved where can faith be required to collaborate when evident or result convulsive??? [response]

Is your question rephrased?
You are mixing two opposites one can either think critically or else apply faith; mind can never mix both is the personal understanding.

Love & rgds

 

[Quantrill]

i will use this as an example of critical thinking vs faith (a belief that requires no proof)

in this belief, that requires no proof, it does require the absence of "choice" as proof
that is the critical thinking element of this statement.

now a critical thinker from the get go would say something like this;
belief is a verb, it is something you choose to do as the criteria for belief has been satisfied
is that a statement of fact?


this is a doosey.
the belief that requires no proof has nothing but proof in this statement while using the previous one as the context. as it claims...
one can not act by choosing to implement the criteria for belief...because belief is and that is where the belief (that requires no proof) takes over by ruling out any and all control from the believer who has set the criteria for belief in the 1st place.

Your saying the Christians faith is a choice. I am not. The Christian believes. Not because of proofs within the physical world. Because of the affect of the Spirit of God on his spirit. Just as real. Only spiritual.

Well, yes, belief is from God. The person is not determining what to believe. The Spirit of God reveals to that persons spirit so that he does believe.

Quantrill

 

[839311]

My beliefs are based on the Bible.

Then your beliefs rest on even shakier ground than I had thought.

but if your experience contridicts the Bible, then I believe the Bible.

Are you a literalist?

To know something in the spirit world, you must have something that reaches to that world. You can only come by faith.

Accepting something as part of reality for which you have no credible evidence is the method by which one can know something in the spirit world? Well, I used to be Christian. "I thought" I knew something about the spirit world. Turns out, I was deluded.

Once you have exercised this faith, then you can apply reason, critical thinking, logic, and evidence to this spiritual life.

In some cases. But not if your applying your reason, critical thinking, and logic to the bible. If you do that, you will probably lose your faith like I did. Also, you will become very confused, because the bible as a whole doesn't even make sense.

God has set it up this way.

And you think so because its written in the bible? The bible is just a book. If I were you, I wouldn't assume I knew anything about what God thinks, does, or has done in the past. If you want to know that, talk to God. Thats the only credible way to find out that information.

Yes, God hides Himself. He also reveals Himself to some. He gives them faith.

That seems very strange.

 

[waitasec]

Friend waitasec,





Is your question rephrased?

i didn't know that is why i asked...(i used my critical thinking skills as i asked )

You are mixing two opposites one can either think critically or else apply faith; mind can never mix both is the personal understanding.

Love & rgds

i thought it would be interesting to see how these two different approaches can and cannot be mixed and, when communicating with one another, we should be able to recognize when we are assuming things and when we are not. now i am NOT saying critical thinkers are people who do not have a belief that requires no proof. i think this is what some people are assuming that i am.

 

[waitasec]

Your saying the Christians faith is a choice. I am not. The Christian believes. Not because of proofs within the physical world. Because of the affect of the Spirit of God on his spirit. Just as real. Only spiritual.

Well, yes, belief is from God. The person is not determining what to believe. The Spirit of God reveals to that persons spirit so that he does believe.

Quantrill

i presented a question and i left it up to you to answer. care to answer it? and if you do, can you elaborate on the criteria.

for example; one of the criterion i set up for myself in order to determine if something is real is through experience.
so here is the question...

belief is a verb, it is something you choose to do as the criteria for belief has been satisfied.
is that a statement of fact?

 

[Thief]

Your saying the Christians faith is a choice. I am not. The Christian believes. Not because of proofs within the physical world. Because of the affect of the Spirit of God on his spirit. Just as real. Only spiritual.

Well, yes, belief is from God. The person is not determining what to believe. The Spirit of God reveals to that persons spirit so that he does believe.

Quantrill

Well with line drawn...I will for the moment takes sides and stand with Waitasec. (I can't 'believe I'm saying that!)

Choice is something you do continually....thought by thought.
Are you implying that God is playing with your head?....
influencing your next decision against your will?

Being Christian is indeed a choice.
This forum is filled with people who chose to believe as they do.

And if Man was such a creature, that must be led to every decision made...
The Garden event is then a set up without choice.
Man 'fell' because God did it.

Of course I don't believe that.
I believe in God by choice.
I have reason to.

But then I have (by choice), dropped the ritual and the recital.
I don't have dogma or long winded prayer.

So my reasons are not influenced by congregation.
I follow no one...no one follows me.

Led to faith by the spirit?.....
I prefer to say the creation is His pronouncement....."I AM".

 

[Quantrill]

Then your beliefs rest on even shakier ground than I had thought.



Are you a literalist?



Accepting something as part of reality for which you have no credible evidence is the method by which one can know something in the spirit world? Well, I used to be Christian. "I thought" I knew something about the spirit world. Turns out, I was deluded.



In some cases. But not if your applying your reason, critical thinking, and logic to the bible. If you do that, you will probably lose your faith like I did. Also, you will become very confused, because the bible as a whole doesn't even make sense.



And you think so because its written in the bible? The bible is just a book. If I were you, I wouldn't assume I knew anything about what God thinks, does, or has done in the past. If you want to know that, talk to God. Thats the only credible way to find out that information.



That seems very strange.

Actually my beliefs are on very solid ground. And I hold to the literal interpretation of the Bible.

I have evidence by which I know that God is there, and Jesus Christ is His Son. But its not evidence to convince you. Well, as you say, you were deluded.

You prove my point. The Bible makes perfect sence. The Christian can apply reason and critical thinking in studying the Bible. Because he has entered into a right spiritual relationship with God by faith.

No, the Bible is not just a book. It is the Word of God. And yes, I know because God has told us so in the Bible.

Strange to you maybe. Not to me. Again, it is the teaching of the Scriptures.

Quantrill

 

[waitasec]

No, the Bible is not just a book. It is the Word of God. And yes, I know because God has told us so in the Bible.

what criteria have you set up for yourself in order to determine the bible is the word of god?

 

[Quantrill]

i presented a question and i left it up to you to answer. care to answer it? and if you do, can you elaborate on the criteria.

for example; one of the criterion i set up for myself in order to determine if something is real is through experience.
so here is the question...

And I answered it. I said I do not see the Christians faith as a choice. In your presenting of this question you present it as one who is a 'critical thinker' but not a Christian. Thus, you will not, can not, come to Christ through your criltical thinking.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

what criteria have you set up for yourself in order to determine the bible is the word of god?

Faith or belief in Christ comes first. The Bible declares itself to be the Word of God. I have the witness of the Spirit of God that it is.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Well with line drawn...I will for the moment takes sides and stand with Waitasec. (I can't 'believe I'm saying that!)

Choice is something you do continually....thought by thought.
Are you implying that God is playing with your head?....
influencing your next decision against your will?

Being Christian is indeed a choice.
This forum is filled with people who chose to believe as they do.

And if Man was such a creature, that must be led to every decision made...
The Garden event is then a set up without choice.
Man 'fell' because God did it.

Of course I don't believe that.
I believe in God by choice.
I have reason to.

But then I have (by choice), dropped the ritual and the recital.
I don't have dogma or long winded prayer.

So my reasons are not influenced by congregation.
I follow no one...no one follows me.

Led to faith by the spirit?.....
I prefer to say the creation is His pronouncement....."I AM".

The Christian has a will. Prior to his coming to Christ, he is wilfully living a life without God. And he would continue in that direction if God does not intervene, reveal Himself to the persons spirit causing the Christian to believe. The will changes as a result. It did not change due to the person deciding to weigh the evidence and found it was more profitable to be a Christian.

Quantrill

 

[waitasec]

And I answered it. I said I do not see the Christians faith as a choice. In your presenting of this question you present it as one who is a 'critical thinker' but not a Christian. Thus, you will not, can not, come to Christ through your criltical thinking.

Quantrill

but you are a critical thinker...
we are communicating are we not?

so what criteria do you use to determine faith is not a choice?

 

[waitasec]

Faith or belief in Christ comes first. The Bible declares itself to be the Word of God. I have the witness of the Spirit of God that it is.

Quantrill

what is the criteria though?
i gave you an example of what i use; experience.

 

[Quantrill]

but you are a critical thinker...
we are communicating are we not?

so what criteria do you use to determine faith is not a choice?

Yes, and yes.

Didn't I say? The declaration of the Bible, and the witness of the Spirit.

Quantrill

 

[waitasec]

The Christian has a will. Prior to his coming to Christ, he is wilfully living a life without God.

so if i saw a banana for the first time
didn't know what the heck it was because i willfully didn't want to know what it was?

And he would continue in that direction if God does not intervene, reveal Himself to the persons spirit causing the Christian to believe. The will changes as a result. It did not change due to the person deciding to weigh the evidence and found it was more profitable to be a Christian.

Quantrill

and if someone told me the banana was a sour fruit with out me personally experiencing the taste i am just to take their word for it?

 

[Quantrill]

what is the criteria though?
i gave you an example of what i use; experience.

You asked what criteria I use to determine the Bible is the Word of God. As I said, faith in Christ comes first. A faith which is from God. Which knows no criteria. Thus my spirit is born-again, of God. And my spirit recognizes the voice of God in the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[waitasec]

Yes, and yes.

Didn't I say? The declaration of the Bible, and the witness of the Spirit.

Quantrill

what is the criteria that you use to determine the bible is the witness of the spirit...

what you seem to be saying is that:
joe says x
and you just believe joe without any reason, you just do.

 

[waitasec]

You asked what criteria I use to determine the Bible is the Word of God. As I said, faith in Christ comes first. A faith which is from God. Which knows no criteria. Thus my spirit is born-again, of God. And my spirit recognizes the voice of God in the Bible.

Quantrill

so if i told you the only way to god is to sell all your worldly possessions,
which is something jesus himself said, and i where to ask, have you?
what would you say?