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critical thinking vs faith

Quantrill

Active Member
yes. practically speaking, we live and can verify that we live in a physical world, that is what i mean by the sphere of critical thinking.


right. but once one applies faith in their critical thinking it is no longer critical thinking but it is faith, since the sphere of faith (belief that requires no proof) has no place for proof.

.
exactly, thats my point. you cannot apply faith to critical thinking
but you can apply critical thinking to faith.

The Christians faith is always existant in his thinking, whether critical or not. The Christian exercises a faith, which is real and he knows is real. The Christian then can exercise critical thinking, logic, and reason in that spirtual realm.

You seem to be saying you cannot come to faith by critical thinking. But that is not the issue. The issue is that you cannot come to God by the use of reason or logic, or critical thinking. The scientific method of knowing is insufficient to operate in the Spirit world. It doesn't have the tools.

Quantrill
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
The Christians faith is always existant in his thinking, whether critical or not. The Christian exercises a faith, which is real and he knows is real. The Christian then can exercise critical thinking, logic, and reason in that spirtual realm.
if he were to apply critical thinking he would know this "real faith" was subjective.

You seem to be saying you cannot come to faith by critical thinking.
yes because once faith walks in the room, critical thinking disappears.

But that is not the issue
.
yes it is as you yourself said:
The issue is that you cannot come to God by the use of reason or logic, or critical thinking.

The scientific method of knowing is insufficient to operate in the Spirit world. It doesn't have the tools.
as faith is insufficient and does not have to the tools to operate in in the physical world when applying critical thinking.

;)
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend wiatasec,

what types of problems can arise when one does apply faith (a belief that requires no proof) in the sphere of critical thinking?
When critical thinking is involved where can faith be required to collaborate when evident or result convulsive???

Love & rgds
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
by definition critical thinking is,
disciplined thinking that is clear, rational, open-minded, and informed by evidence

by definition faith is,
a belief that is not based on proof:

so, would if be fair to say...?
'in the sphere of faith (a belief that requires no proof) critical thinking can be applied while in the sphere of critical thinking faith (a belief that requires no proof) cannot be applied.

and if so, what types of problems can arise when one does apply faith (a belief that requires no proof) in the sphere of critical thinking?




i for one would say yes it is a fair statement and the problem that would arise from applying faith to critical thinking is that critical thinking becomes faith.

So when I am told "God is the only logical explanation", are you seriously suggesting there is an alternative based on thinking? Get outa here!

God is the only logical answer to any question :bow:

Sop trying to confuse us with your pseudo critical whatever it's called. How can you even prove thinking exists? :p
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
So when I am told "God is the only logical explanation", are you seriously suggesting there is an alternative based on thinking? Get outa here!

God is the only logical answer to any question :bow:

Sop trying to confuse us with your pseudo critical whatever it's called. How can you even prove thinking exists? :p

ah...hmmm....ahhh
huh?


;)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I don't think so (but I'm going to think about this). You provided a great example. Let's say I restate your antecedent as a premise: Whatever cannot be explained by logic is not logical.

Let's further speculate that I accept your premise, but (like the turtle) I don't accept your conclusion. You respond "but it follows from the premise." I say I disagree. Can you explain to my why it logically follows? If you can't, does that make it illogical?

Because it does. :rolleyes:

Let me ask you: Why is hydrogen lighter than oxygen?
 

arcanum

Active Member
By definition your 'critical thinking' pertains only to the physical world. It assumes there is no supernatural or spiritual world. Or, it recognizes it hasn't the ability to operate in that sphere.

The faith of the Christian opens the door to that world. That faith is real, being defined in the Bible, and witnessed to the Christians spirit by the Holy Spirit. Its not proveable to you or real to you. But it is real nonetheless.

Once that door is open for the Christian, then we can and do use logic, and reason, and critical thinking, in the spiritual sphere. Your confusion comes from wanting to apply your scientific method of knowing to the Christians spiritual method of knowing. And you can't.

Quantrill
I think you make a good point. There are different realms of human experience and different tools are applicable to different realms, much like keys. Some keys work on some locks and some don't. Faith is often illogical, it operates on a different level than sense experience and analytical thinking. Almost like a left brain right brain dichotomy.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
you think if we knew everything life could still be interesting?

i don't see how.
:shrug:

Sure, why not? Learning new things isn't the only way to stay interested. Random events occuring would be interesting. Playing sports, for example, never knowing who wins. Any kind of competition, really.

Plus, if we knew everything, we would know how to erase memory, which we could always do if we wanted to revert to a more primitive state of knowledge just so we could relearn the same things... Sounds kinda strange... but, its an option.

Besides, even if we knew everything, that doesn't mean that we couldn't wonder about things that might exist that are beyond our ability to find out. Like if say our part of reality is just one layer of a cake and there are lots more, but there is no direct interaction between them so we'd never know. But you could still wonder about it. And maybe there would be an interaction every decillion years or so, maybe a destructive one, so in that way you could never be sure that you knew everything. Even God would be subject to this, if he exists.

Also, interesting might not necessarily be all that important if we knew everything. Happiness might be far more important, or pleasure of one type or another might rank higher than interesting. The perfect tasting food would be really good too.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Sure, why not? Learning new things isn't the only way to stay interested. Random events occuring would be interesting. Playing sports, for example, never knowing who wins. Any kind of competition, really.
but i'm saying the same thing...never knowing who wins is a part of not knowing, isn't it?

Plus, if we knew everything, we would know how to erase memory, which we could always do if we wanted to revert to a more primitive state of knowledge just so we could relearn the same things... Sounds kinda strange... but, its an option.


Besides, even if we knew everything, that doesn't mean that we couldn't wonder about things that might exist that are beyond our ability to find out. Like if say our part of reality is just one layer of a cake and there are lots more, but there is no direct interaction between them so we'd never know. But you could still wonder about it. And maybe there would be an interaction every decillion years or so, maybe a destructive one, so in that way you could never be sure that you knew everything. Even God would be subject to this, if he exists.
if we had the ability to erase memory, we wouldn't be able to project into the future with abstract thinking...which is dependent on not knowing.

Also, interesting might not necessarily be all that important if we knew everything. Happiness might be far more important, or pleasure of one type or another might rank higher than interesting. The perfect tasting food would be really good too.
which is why i call it a boring and sterile state of existence.
:)
 

839311

Well-Known Member
but i'm saying the same thing...never knowing who wins is a part of not knowing, isn't it?

if we had the ability to erase memory, we wouldn't be able to project into the future with abstract thinking...which is dependent on not knowing.

Ahh, you mean knowing the future as well, as in through determinism we can know absolutely everything about the present, past, and future. Well, yes, in that case we would know everything, with the exception of things that weren't a part of our reality but still exist.

which is why i call it a boring and sterile state of existence.
:)

I don't think your right here. If you were happy and enjoying existence, you wouldn't be bored would you? You would feel really good. Maybe you'd know everything there is to know, and that would actually make you feel incredibly good and complete, and you could just focus on feeling good and being happy.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I don't think your right here. If you were happy and enjoying existence, you wouldn't be bored would you? You would feel really good. Maybe you'd know everything there is to know, and that would actually make you feel incredibly good and complete, and you could just focus on feeling good and being happy.

judging by experience, i have had the opportunity to go on a vacation for several months, with out any sense of responsibility to keep myself afloat financially, oddly enough, i wish that were the case today... ;)
after 2 weeks or so i was bored...i had to do something that required me to be challenged in some way or another...and looking back ...one could say, i made it so to speak...but did i as i found myself bored?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If critical thinking can be applied to faith does that not show that they are not of their nature oil and water?

in the critical thinking sphere yes...

however in the faith (a belief that requires no proof) sphere no.
whatever belief one holds has met the criteria for which one has set in their faith through critical thinking.

but faith cannot be found in the critical thinking sphere since the sphere of critical thinking requires evidence.
 
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