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Critical Thinking and Theism/Atheism

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Logic and the rest of critical thinking present information that is eternally true. Assuming an afterlife, then learning such information is far more important than learning information that just goes irrelevant or obsolete. Yet most theists, who supposedly believe in an afterlife, are less competent at critical thinking than most atheists, who don't believe in an afterlife. Yes, that's a dogmatic statement, but anyone who uses social media can see that it's clearly true. The few theists who learn critical thinking are the smart ones, who can match or beat the smartest atheists. But smart people are the minority. Among people of average IQ who engage in philosophical discussion, the atheists are more rational.

I assert that the reason for this reversal is scripture, which tells people to believe what they are told, rather than figure things out for themselves.

Yet the biblical scriptures extol the virtues of logic, thinking, reasoning, wisdom... when the Bible was a main text of American schools, many great thinkers were raised.

You are referring to a different phenomenon, the fact that many highly intelligent people are atheists. The Bible addresses this fact as well...
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Ok. I am new to this site. I will observe how Christians handle themselves and perhaps I will change my mind.
You might have been thinking about only people on this forum, I was talking about a larger segment. Whether the people on this forum will change your mind about a generalization that does not hold true, that is up to you.

I am just responding to your statements. I am not even sure if I am allowed to be forthright in this forum.
Yes. Though you might receive a warning if you start to go against the forum rules. If you don't feel like reading the rules, common sense netiquette serves pretty far.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
That wouldn't be a very good example, since, like most of the Bible's claims in regards to truth--it's actually a true statement--there ARE those fools who would deny that atheists are better critical thinkers than theists.

But yeah, I understand what you're saying. However, it's not usually so much a problem resulting from the Bible's true statement that there ARE those who are blinded to the truth, as it is a problem resulting from a logical thinking error in which Xians so often engage. It goes something like this:

1. God said we would be hated for telling the truth.
2. I am hated.
3. Therefore, I must be telling the truth.

But like I said, that's more a matter of correcting an irrational thinker on their faulty logic than it is a matter of correcting God on a faulty warning.

Unfortunately, The Bible's "true" statements that there will be those that deny "the truth" come with quite a bit of context that is far more than hinted to as being "truth." So while the statement "there will always be deniers of truth" taken out of context is obviously true, it is actually unfair to The Bible's intent to completely extract that statement from the context, which it wholeheartedly relies on.

Also, not all of those statements in The Bible that are like this qualify as "truth" even when extracted from the context. For example:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

You're blind to something great if you are an unbeliever. Is this true?

Psalms 14:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Using an absolute qualifier like "none" is a pretty bold move no matter where you apply it. Can the above statement be considered "true?"

James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

You are God's enemy, and therefore likely subject to his judgment, if you are more "friendly" with the world than you are allied with God. What does it even mean to have "friendship with the world?" True?

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Condemned already. Can we know this to be true?

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Certainly sounds like finding your name in the "book of life" is something you want to be able to do. Is this true?

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

They craftily precede "unbelieving" with "defiled", sort of giving themselves an "out" of sorts here. As we obviously can't make the claim that everyone "unbelieving" is also "defiled," right? So if you are defiled AND unbelieving, then nothing is pure. But if you are unbelieving, how do you know if you are not also "defiled?" As an unbeliever, it seems like you're only one step away from being one of these people to whom "nothing is pure" - which certainly reads like it is a pretty bad thing. Again, dressed in fancy language, sounds nice... but it is just putting the pressure on.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Flawless you say. Ha. Confucious was one man and he left something superbly better. The Quran is also a best seller in the world. Would you assume that it too must be the work of God? Indoctrinated Muslims will tell you it is the most superb document on earth. Sound familiar?
The Bible tells you to stone a woman who has committed adultry. What superb morality and advice! It tells you that gays are evil. How insightful.
Jealous? O ofcourse I am terribly jealous of indoctrinated people.

Confucianism is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. Islam is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. But the Quran is "A" best seller? The Bible is THE best-seller of all time, baby! But yeah, both Confucianism and Islam and all of their inspired writings were inspired by the same God, you are correct in that regard. The words of Confucious resonate with some, the words of Allah resonate with others, and still others get their inspiration from the word of God. Every sincere seeker will find their way to God; that's just how we were created.

Gays are evil, women who have committed adultery are evil, people who wear clothing woven from two types of fabric are evil, and every single one of us deserves to just go ahead and die in our own mortality--but some of us were created for salvation from that fate. THAT'S the message and the morality of the Bible--that none of us are worthy of that gift or that honor of spending eternity in the presence of God.
 

Drizzt Do'Urden

Deistic Drow Elf
Confucianism is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. Islam is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. But the Quran is "A" best seller? The Bible is THE best-seller of all time, baby! But yeah, both Confucianism and Islam and all of their inspired writings were inspired by the same God, you are correct in that regard. The words of Confucious resonate with some, the words of Allah resonate with others, and still others get their inspiration from the word of God. Every sincere seeker will find their way to God; that's just how we were created.

Gays are evil, women who have committed adultery are evil, people who wear clothing woven from two types of fabric are evil, and every single one of us deserves to just go ahead and die in our own mortality--but some of us were created for salvation from that fate. THAT'S the message and the morality of the Bible--that none of us are worthy of that gift or that honor of spending eternity in the presence of God.
Double_facepalm.jpg
 

Drizzt Do'Urden

Deistic Drow Elf
Confucianism is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. Islam is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. But the Quran is "A" best seller? The Bible is THE best-seller of all time, baby! But yeah, both Confucianism and Islam and all of their inspired writings were inspired by the same God, you are correct in that regard. The words of Confucious resonate with some, the words of Allah resonate with others, and still others get their inspiration from the word of God. Every sincere seeker will find their way to God; that's just how we were created.

Gays are evil, women who have committed adultery are evil, people who wear clothing woven from two types of fabric are evil, and every single one of us deserves to just go ahead and die in our own mortality--but some of us were created for salvation from that fate. THAT'S the message and the morality of the Bible--that none of us are worthy of that gift or that honor of spending eternity in the presence of God.

Mahavira, the Jain patriarch/god, surpassed the morality of the Bible with a single sentence:

"Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being."

Imagine how different our world might be if the Bible contained THIS as its central precept.

Christians have abused, oppressed, enslaved, insulted, tormented, tortured, and killed people in the name of God for centuries, on the basis of a theologically defensible reading of the Bible.
 

Cary Cook

Member
Yet the biblical scriptures extol the virtues of logic, thinking, reasoning, wisdom... when the Bible was a main text of American schools, many great thinkers were raised.

You are referring to a different phenomenon, the fact that many highly intelligent people are atheists. The Bible addresses this fact as well...
Logic is not mentioned, though "philosophy and vain deceit" are lumped together.

Reason is mentioned:
Isa 1:18-31 - "Come let us reason together." The rest says essentially, Obey me (Isaiah speaking for Yahweh) or I (supposedly Yahweh) will whack you.

Wisdom is always seen as doing what the writer says to do in the name or authority of Yahweh.
 

Cary Cook

Member
Atheism doesn't exist without religion. So a world view that completely relies on the existence of Religion and yet holds disdain for religion is a spoiled child of religion is all that is. Yea of course religion can be absurdist and can be a whole bunch of things but atheism lol cute.
Irrelevant to anything I said.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
You're blind to something great if you are an unbeliever. Is this true?

Yes, of course it is, inasmuch as God is great.

Psalms 14:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Using an absolute qualifier like "none" is a pretty bold move no matter where you apply it. Can the above statement be considered "true?"

Absolutely. I don't know why unbelievers would be more righteous than believers.

James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

You are God's enemy, and therefore likely subject to his judgment, if you are more "friendly" with the world than you are allied with God. What does it even mean to have "friendship with the world?" True?

"Friendship with the world" would be indulging in the selfish pleasures that the world has to offer, rather than loving God and loving others. Our human nature of selfishness fundamentally separates us from God's nature of love, so again, it's almost self-obviously true.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Condemned already. Can we know this to be true?

Yes, if we believe the Bible when it says that the names of those created for salvation were recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Certainly sounds like finding your name in the "book of life" is something you want to be able to do. Is this true?

Definitely.

Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

They craftily precede "unbelieving" with "defiled", sort of giving themselves an "out" of sorts here. As we obviously can't make the claim that everyone "unbelieving" is also "defiled," right? So if you are defiled AND unbelieving, then nothing is pure. But if you are unbelieving, how do you know if you are not also "defiled?" As an unbeliever, it seems like you're only one step away from being one of these people to whom "nothing is pure" - which certainly reads like it is a pretty bad thing. Again, dressed in fancy language, sounds nice... but it is just putting the pressure on.

Yeah, I think it would be fair to say that the unbelieving are also defiled. I don't see "the defiled" and "the unbelieving" as being Set A and Set B; more like "the defiled and unbelieving" are one Set B, as opposed to the Set A of the pure. So if you're unbelieving, you can be pretty sure that God also considers you to be defiled. As an unbeliever, you're not "one step away" from absolute impurity--you're already there!

So... is there a point to all this?
 

Cary Cook

Member
The atheist has so much at his disposal to argue with. There are few Christians who can become superb opponents to "fairly" intelligent atheists.
You can quote a lot of isolated verses in the Bible, but the general idea is encapsulated wonderfully in what Paul says. Christians do not think in the way the world thinks. Christian logic is holy spirit inspired logic.
Which is nonsense by the way.
Atheists have the upper hand. They thrive in the "world" and can use anything but the kitchen sink to debate.
The Christian is limited by what he is told to believe. The Bible is limited.
We agree. Yet I'm a monotheist and you're a "None".
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Mahavira, the Jain patriarch/god, surpassed the morality of the Bible with a single sentence:

"Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being."

Imagine how different our world might be if the Bible contained THIS as its central precept.

Christians have abused, oppressed, enslaved, insulted, tormented, tortured, and killed people in the name of God for centuries, on the basis of a theologically defensible reading of the Bible.

How IS that any different from the central precept of the Bible--to love God and to love each other? I doubt if the world would be changed much, if at all, by wording the central precept of the Bible in different words like that. There would always still be those believers who choose not to follow it, and those unbelievers who don't think it applies to them.

But I guess taking antibiotics to kill bacteria would be strictly immoral, at least for believers... and the devoted would have to exercise great care not to tread on an ant...?
 

Drizzt Do'Urden

Deistic Drow Elf
How IS that any different from the central precept of the Bible--to love God and to love each other? I doubt if the world would be changed much, if at all, by wording the central precept of the Bible in different words like that. There would always still be those believers who choose not to follow it, and those unbelievers who don't think it applies to them.

But I guess taking antibiotics to kill bacteria would be strictly immoral, at least for believers... and the devoted would have to exercise great care not to tread on an ant...?

The only thing in the bible that even remotely sounds like what Mahavira said is the 10 commandments.

You know, it's been suggested that the god of the bible took the time to come down to the Earth on Mt Sinai and speak with his prophet Moses about some commandments he wanted people to try to follow...

Essentially, he took the time to tell us some things he considered legal and illegal.

The god of the bible saw people coveting.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT COVET"

The god of the bible saw people stealing from one another.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT STEAL"

The god of the bible saw people murdering one another.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT MURDER"

The god of the bible saw people adultering with one another.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY"

SURELY the god of the bible saw people enslaving one another.

SURELY the god of the bible didn't like slavery and would be against it... Right?

soooooo...., WHY NO COMMANDMENT AGAINST IT?
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
The only thing in the bible that even remotely sounds like what Mahavira said is the 10 commandments.

You know, it's been suggested that the god of the bible took the time to come down to the Earth on Mt Sinai and speak with his prophet Moses about some commandments he wanted people to try to follow...

Essentially, he took the time to tell us some things he considered legal and illegal.

The god of the bible saw people coveting.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT COVET"

The god of the bible saw people stealing from one another.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT STEAL"

The god of the bible saw people murdering one another.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT MURDER"

The god of the bible saw people adultering with one another.
He apparently didn't like it, so he made a commandment against it.
"THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY"

SURELY the god of the bible saw people enslaving one another.

SURELY the god of the bible didn't like slavery and would be against it... Right?

soooooo...., WHY NO COMMANDMENT AGAINST IT?

There are lots of laws governing slavery in the Bible--and it's clear that God was not against everything that was called slavery in the Bible--but sometimes laws aren't good enough for people, and they want a commandment. So then those people were always asking, "What, no commandment against _______?"

So finally God threw up His hands and sent Jesus to tell us, "Look, do you want to follow every commandment ever written AND every commandment that's ever gone unwritten too? Then love God and love each other, and you can't go wrong. Follow the rules if you need rules; follow the principles if you can see beyond rules."
 

Drizzt Do'Urden

Deistic Drow Elf
There are lots of laws governing slavery in the Bible--and it's clear that God was not against everything that was called slavery in the Bible--but sometimes laws aren't good enough for people, and they want a commandment. So then those people were always asking, "What, no commandment against _______?"

So finally God threw up His hands and sent Jesus to tell us, "Look, do you want to follow every commandment ever written AND every commandment that's ever gone unwritten too? Then love God and love each other, and you can't go wrong. Follow the rules if you need rules; follow the principles if you can see beyond rules."

Come on! You can't be serious...?!

Besides maybe murder, slavery is arguably the worst thing that one person can do to another person, but even then murder is at least an end. With the slavery discussed in the bible, provided you weren't a male Hebrew slave, you had your whole life to live as a slave never being free to do as you wish, pursue your desires, etc

So what you'd like me and whoever reads this to believe is that your god felt it was necessary to tell us to not covet, to not murder, to not steal, to not commit adultery, but he's not going to give us a Thou Shalt Not Hold Slaves?

Even in the new testament, slaves are told to obey their masters. You would think that the message would be to be free, and have liberty, and more importantly fight for the liberty of others, but that's not what this verse implies should be the case

Ephesians 6:5-8
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

And this verse in Timothy seems to imply it's OK for Christians to hold slaves...

1 Timothy 6:1-2
1 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. 2 If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Come on! You can't be serious...?!

Not only CAN I be serious, but I AM being serious.

Besides maybe murder, slavery is arguably the worst thing that one person can do to another person, but even then murder is at least an end. With the slavery discussed in the bible, provided you weren't a male Hebrew slave, you had your whole life to live as a slave never being free to do as you wish, pursue your desires, etc.

That's not true at all; slavery allowed someone who owed an impossible debt to redeem themselves by their servitude. Taking someone who owed you a great amount as a slave and allowing them to pay off their debt sounds better than just slamming them in the poorhouse for life or something.

You do seem to be confused about slavery "discussed in the Bible" though; confusing it with a lifelong sentence. You talk about things like living your whole life as a slave, and "never" being free to do as you wish or pursue your own desires, etc. If we're looking at the slavery that is discussed in the Bible, then we're talking about a period of six to seven years, maximum (Exodus 21:1), and it was to be a relationship of mutual respect, as shown in the verses you quoted.

Now, a man could choose to remain a slave forever, if he so wished, and then he would be taken care of for the rest of his life--but he was under no obligation to remain a slave beyond the period of his repayment.

So what you'd like me and whoever reads this to believe is that your god felt it was necessary to tell us to not covet, to not murder, to not steal, to not commit adultery, but he's not going to give us a Thou Shalt Not Hold Slaves?

Why would God want to take away a debtor's only means of redemption? I can certainly understand why God would want to regulate master-slave relations to insure fair treatment both of the slave by the master and of the master by the slave, but I don't see why He would want to remove the option of slavery entirely from potential slaves and/or masters.

It's almost like you're thinking of the modern incarnation of slavery, you know, where bad guys went to Africa and kidnapped people and then sold them to rich people in America, often (though not always) into a lifetime of poor treatment. God DID forbid THAT kind of slavery in no uncertain terms:

"Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death." --Exodus 21:16 (using your translation, the ESV)

Clearly, THAT kind of slavery is not condoned by God.
 

Drizzt Do'Urden

Deistic Drow Elf
Not only CAN I be serious, but I AM being serious.



That's not true at all; slavery allowed someone who owed an impossible debt to redeem themselves by their servitude. Taking someone who owed you a great amount as a slave and allowing them to pay off their debt sounds better than just slamming them in the poorhouse for life or something.

You do seem to be confused about slavery "discussed in the Bible" though; confusing it with a lifelong sentence. You talk about things like living your whole life as a slave, and "never" being free to do as you wish or pursue your own desires, etc. If we're looking at the slavery that is discussed in the Bible, then we're talking about a period of six to seven years, maximum (Exodus 21:1), and it was to be a relationship of mutual respect, as shown in the verses you quoted.

Now, a man could choose to remain a slave forever, if he so wished, and then he would be taken care of for the rest of his life--but he was under no obligation to remain a slave beyond the period of his repayment.



Why would God want to take away a debtor's only means of redemption? I can certainly understand why God would want to regulate master-slave relations to insure fair treatment both of the slave by the master and of the master by the slave, but I don't see why He would want to remove the option of slavery entirely from potential slaves and/or masters.

It's almost like you're thinking of the modern incarnation of slavery, you know, where bad guys went to Africa and kidnapped people and then sold them to rich people in America, often (though not always) into a lifetime of poor treatment. God DID forbid THAT kind of slavery in no uncertain terms:

"Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death." --Exodus 21:16 (using your translation, the ESV)

Clearly, THAT kind of slavery is not condoned by God.

Pffffttttt... Who do you think you're kidding? The slavery that was taking place back in ancient times wasn't like the indentured servitude that took place with Europeans coming to America paying their way by doing butler and maid jobs for Americans for a specified time per the contract, etc.

I am so sick of hearing that bullschit line, it almost makes me cross eyed.

The people back in ancient times who were relegated to slave status weren't put in that place because they owed someone something. They were people taken in wars, people taken because they were seen as subhuman.

You know what proves your theory wrong? Slaves could be held for life, and any children those slaves had while being a slave were also held for life.

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children AS A PERMANENT INHERITANCE. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Did you catch that? A PERMANENT INHERITANCE, ie for life... How must Hebrew slaves be treated?

Male Hebrew slaves had to be let go in the 7th year of their service.

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever." (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

Did you catch all that nonsense about wives and such? So basically, the slave holder could strong arm the male Hebrew slave into staying a slave by holding his wife and kids hostage. This is your just god?

So what proves your theory wrong? If slaves in those days were just trying to pay off a debt, there is no debt that a person in those days could incur that would justify holding them as a slave their entire life, and holding their wives and children as slaves too...
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
The slavery that was taking place back in ancient times wasn't like the indentured servitude that took place with Europeans coming to America paying their way by doing butler and maid jobs for Americans for a specified time per the contract, etc.

LOL!

I'll give you one thing, you're not afraid to keep coming back for one spanking after another. This is like the third discussion I've had with you--and the third time you've Googled yourself into some kind of a rational corner--and both of the previous times, you've just continued to insist that your error wasn't an error, and when I'd throw up my hands and walk away, you'd suggest that I only refused to continue beating your dead horse because YOU had proven ME wrong.

So I'm only gonna say this once, and then I'm outta here--whether I've proven you wrong or you've proven me wrong or whatever. It doesn't matter when we don't play by the same rules.

Now, slavery wasn't like indentured servitude?

Yes, yes it was. It was exactly like that--as the verse YOU CITED suggests:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children AS A PERMANENT INHERITANCE. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Did you catch the part where it said you may PURCHASE slaves? Who do you think was getting paid? Obviously, there were no "slave traders" like you're thinking of if you ever watched "Roots"--no one going around snatching the foreigners in back alleys to be sold at the slave market--this was already clearly forbidden and punishable by death (both of the slave trader and the slave owner) as I cited in my previous lesson.

The master paid the foreigner to be his slave, for some period of time, up to and including life. This was all at the behest of the potential slave--it was their choice. They could bring their wife and kids with them, and even be paid for the servitude of their wife and kids, if they so chose--but it WAS their choice. As I said, no one was going around kidnapping foreigners living among them and then selling them on the corner. This is pretty much exactly like indentured servitude, and remember, there were strict laws to regulate how slaves treated their masters, as well as how masters treated their slaves, so entering into a relationship of servitude was legally very much a contract.

Did you catch all that nonsense about wives and such? So basically, the slave holder could strong arm the male Hebrew slave into staying a slave by holding his wife and kids hostage. This is your just god?

Nobody would be "strong-arming" anyone. If the man was married before he entered into the relationship of servitude, then his wife and kids went with him, no questions asked. He would know this. He would also know, in advance, that if he got married WHILE he was under contract, then his wife (and any potential kids) would NOT be free to go with him. This was, of course, not to strong-arm men who were stupid enough to marry their true loves while under contract, but to prevent scheming women from marrying a "short-timer" from among the slaves, and then riding out on his coattails before she had fulfilled HER contract. Again, both parties would be aware of this law going in; if two people really wanted to be together "on the outside," they'd just wait until they both were free to be married. Duh.

So what proves your theory wrong? If slaves in those days were just trying to pay off a debt, there is no debt that a person in those days could incur that would justify holding them as a slave their entire life, and holding their wives and children as slaves too...

As we have seen, the potential slave got to decide that for themselves. If THEY felt they were getting a fair price for a lifetime of servitude, THEY were allowed to make that choice. You may not think it's fair that the man got to make the decision for his wife and kids, too, but that was a cultural thing, not a slavery thing. If anything, women and children had even lower social standing than slaves to begin with--they were mere property. Slaves were more like the hired help.

I won't engage you further on this matter. If it helps you to sleep at night by thinking that I've tucked my tail between my legs and run from the light of your penetrating exegesis, then do that.
 

Drizzt Do'Urden

Deistic Drow Elf
LOL!

I'll give you one thing, you're not afraid to keep coming back for one spanking after another. This is like the third discussion I've had with you--and the third time you've Googled yourself into some kind of a rational corner--and both of the previous times, you've just continued to insist that your error wasn't an error, and when I'd throw up my hands and walk away, you'd suggest that I only refused to continue beating your dead horse because YOU had proven ME wrong.

So I'm only gonna say this once, and then I'm outta here--whether I've proven you wrong or you've proven me wrong or whatever. It doesn't matter when we don't play by the same rules.

Now, slavery wasn't like indentured servitude?

Yes, yes it was. It was exactly like that--as the verse YOU CITED suggests:



Did you catch the part where it said you may PURCHASE slaves? Who do you think was getting paid? Obviously, there were no "slave traders" like you're thinking of if you ever watched "Roots"--no one going around snatching the foreigners in back alleys to be sold at the slave market--this was already clearly forbidden and punishable by death (both of the slave trader and the slave owner) as I cited in my previous lesson.

The master paid the foreigner to be his slave, for some period of time, up to and including life. This was all at the behest of the potential slave--it was their choice. They could bring their wife and kids with them, and even be paid for the servitude of their wife and kids, if they so chose--but it WAS their choice. As I said, no one was going around kidnapping foreigners living among them and then selling them on the corner. This is pretty much exactly like indentured servitude, and remember, there were strict laws to regulate how slaves treated their masters, as well as how masters treated their slaves, so entering into a relationship of servitude was legally very much a contract.



Nobody would be "strong-arming" anyone. If the man was married before he entered into the relationship of servitude, then his wife and kids went with him, no questions asked. He would know this. He would also know, in advance, that if he got married WHILE he was under contract, then his wife (and any potential kids) would NOT be free to go with him. This was, of course, not to strong-arm men who were stupid enough to marry their true loves while under contract, but to prevent scheming women from marrying a "short-timer" from among the slaves, and then riding out on his coattails before she had fulfilled HER contract. Again, both parties would be aware of this law going in; if two people really wanted to be together "on the outside," they'd just wait until they both were free to be married. Duh.



As we have seen, the potential slave got to decide that for themselves. If THEY felt they were getting a fair price for a lifetime of servitude, THEY were allowed to make that choice. You may not think it's fair that the man got to make the decision for his wife and kids, too, but that was a cultural thing, not a slavery thing. If anything, women and children had even lower social standing than slaves to begin with--they were mere property. Slaves were more like the hired help.

I won't engage you further on this matter. If it helps you to sleep at night by thinking that I've tucked my tail between my legs and run from the light of your penetrating exegesis, then do that.

Of course I caught the part where it said slaves may be purchased... Who do I think was getting paid? Slave traders. Yes, you obviously think otherwise but there were obviously slave traders because who would these slaves be bought from?

The vast majority of slaves in ancient times were people taken as a result of conquest. They were taken as conquest because the winner of the war had to pay his armies with something, right? Some of what was taken as plunder was used to pay off his armies, but the other way to pay them off was to take some of the people you've conquered as slaves and sell them to slave traders.

Now they're in control by slave traders who would take the slaves in caravans to places far and wide trying to make their money back selling these people off to people like the Romans and Greeks whose economies and infrastructure were almost entirely built by slaves.

A very VERY small percentage of slaves in ancient times were debt slaves just trying to pay off debts, the other slaves were criminals and such.

One of the claims you made was that slaves were only supposed to be slaves for 6-7 years, but as verses I gave showed, what you said is plainly not true. Foreign slaves could be held for life and passed down to the slaveholders children as an inheritance. Male Hebrew slaves could only be held for 6-7 years and female Hebrew slaves could be held for life.

If this slavery was truly contract based as you suggest, when the man who made the contract with the "slave" dies, the contract dies with him. The slaveholders kids shouldn't be able to just pick the contract back up and the person continues to be a slave (remember the verse that says they can be passed down as an inheritance?)

This argument that you and other apologists give is specious as all get out, and you know it, but since you're defending your faith you'll come up with whatever silly rationalizations you can to portray biblical slavery in a better light.
 

Drizzt Do'Urden

Deistic Drow Elf
LOL!

I'll give you one thing, you're not afraid to keep coming back for one spanking after another. This is like the third discussion I've had with you--and the third time you've Googled yourself into some kind of a rational corner--and both of the previous times, you've just continued to insist that your error wasn't an error, and when I'd throw up my hands and walk away, you'd suggest that I only refused to continue beating your dead horse because YOU had proven ME wrong.

So I'm only gonna say this once, and then I'm outta here--whether I've proven you wrong or you've proven me wrong or whatever. It doesn't matter when we don't play by the same rules.

Now, slavery wasn't like indentured servitude?

Yes, yes it was. It was exactly like that--as the verse YOU CITED suggests:



Did you catch the part where it said you may PURCHASE slaves? Who do you think was getting paid? Obviously, there were no "slave traders" like you're thinking of if you ever watched "Roots"--no one going around snatching the foreigners in back alleys to be sold at the slave market--this was already clearly forbidden and punishable by death (both of the slave trader and the slave owner) as I cited in my previous lesson.

The master paid the foreigner to be his slave, for some period of time, up to and including life. This was all at the behest of the potential slave--it was their choice. They could bring their wife and kids with them, and even be paid for the servitude of their wife and kids, if they so chose--but it WAS their choice. As I said, no one was going around kidnapping foreigners living among them and then selling them on the corner. This is pretty much exactly like indentured servitude, and remember, there were strict laws to regulate how slaves treated their masters, as well as how masters treated their slaves, so entering into a relationship of servitude was legally very much a contract.



Nobody would be "strong-arming" anyone. If the man was married before he entered into the relationship of servitude, then his wife and kids went with him, no questions asked. He would know this. He would also know, in advance, that if he got married WHILE he was under contract, then his wife (and any potential kids) would NOT be free to go with him. This was, of course, not to strong-arm men who were stupid enough to marry their true loves while under contract, but to prevent scheming women from marrying a "short-timer" from among the slaves, and then riding out on his coattails before she had fulfilled HER contract. Again, both parties would be aware of this law going in; if two people really wanted to be together "on the outside," they'd just wait until they both were free to be married. Duh.



As we have seen, the potential slave got to decide that for themselves. If THEY felt they were getting a fair price for a lifetime of servitude, THEY were allowed to make that choice. You may not think it's fair that the man got to make the decision for his wife and kids, too, but that was a cultural thing, not a slavery thing. If anything, women and children had even lower social standing than slaves to begin with--they were mere property. Slaves were more like the hired help.

I won't engage you further on this matter. If it helps you to sleep at night by thinking that I've tucked my tail between my legs and run from the light of your penetrating exegesis, then do that.

I almost forgot to mention it, but even Jesus thought it was OK to beat slaves...

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
 
Confucianism is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. Islam is better than Christianity? Maybe. Opinions vary. But the Quran is "A" best seller? The Bible is THE best-seller of all time, baby! But yeah, both Confucianism and Islam and all of their inspired writings were inspired by the same God, you are correct in that regard. The words of Confucious resonate with some, the words of Allah resonate with others, and still others get their inspiration from the word of God. Every sincere seeker will find their way to God; that's just how we were created.

Gays are evil, women who have committed adultery are evil, people who wear clothing woven from two types of fabric are evil, and every single one of us deserves to just go ahead and die in our own mortality--but some of us were created for salvation from that fate. THAT'S the message and the morality of the Bible--that none of us are worthy of that gift or that honor of spending eternity in the presence of God.
The writings of Confucious is not religious.
You, a Christian saying that a Muslim who wilfully ignores jesus and his sacrifice will find God? A Muslim who argues that Jesus exists, but is not the son of God. I read what you have to say about slavery. You sound like a worldly lawyer that will justify anything, even justify all the unjust rules in the Bible to be right with God. If there were a god he will not take one as yourself to spend eternity with him. Don't worry, there is no hell. Lose yourself in your fairy stories. Like a true apologist don't just bend the truth in your arguments with others, lie to yourself as well. Good luck as an indentured servant to an ancient superstition.
The Bible only sells better than the Quran because there are many more Christians and Christian institutions.
 
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