Critical Thinking and Theism/Atheism

[Cary Cook]

Logic and the rest of critical thinking present information that is eternally true. Assuming an afterlife, then learning such information is far more important than learning information that just goes irrelevant or obsolete. Yet most theists, who supposedly believe in an afterlife, are less competent at critical thinking than most atheists, who don't believe in an afterlife. Yes, that's a dogmatic statement, but anyone who uses social media can see that it's clearly true. The few theists who learn critical thinking are the smart ones, who can match or beat the smartest atheists. But smart people are the minority. Among people of average IQ who engage in philosophical discussion, the atheists are more rational.

I assert that the reason for this reversal is scripture, which tells people to believe what they are told, rather than figure things out for themselves.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

Logic and the rest of critical thinking present information that is eternally true. Assuming an afterlife, then learning such information is far more important than learning information that just goes irrelevant or obsolete. Yet most theists, who supposedly believe in an afterlife, are less competent at critical thinking than most atheists, who don't believe in an afterlife. Yes, that's a dogmatic statement, but anyone who uses social media can see that it's clearly true. The few theists who learn critical thinking are the smart ones, who can match or beat the smartest atheists. But smart people are the minority. Among people of average IQ who engage in philosophical discussion, the atheists are more rational.

I assert that the reason for this reversal is scripture, which tells people to believe what they are told, rather than figure things out for themselves.

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Dan Dennett

 

[Sunstone]

I'm not sure using people on social media as your sole sample provides you with an accurate representation of theists and atheists in our society. Social media users, on the whole, strike me as relatively young and willing to offer their opinions on any number of subjects for which they might or might not be qualified to offer sound opinions on. Older people of my offline acquaintance tend to be more evenly divided when it comes to intelligence and insight than people online. I know a few each of brilliant theists and brilliant atheists who don't even have FaceBook accounts, let alone come onto RF.

 

[Axe Elf]

I assert that the reason for this reversal is scripture, which tells people to believe what they are told, rather than figure things out for themselves.

Whether your central tenet (that atheists are better at critical thinking than believers) is true or not, your proposed explanation (that scripture tells people to just accept whatever they are told) is incorrect; scripture says no such thing.

"But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things]" --1 Corinthians 2:15a

"Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." --1 Peter 3:15b

Christians who don't like to use critical thinking skills are not only being lazy, they are not following the directives of their own scriptures.

 

[Sunstone]

...most theists...are less competent at critical thinking than most atheists....

Even if that were true, it would be absurd to infer from that fact that the "brightest" theists were not as "bright" as -- or even "brighter" -- than the "brightest" atheists. One simply would not know based solely on the fact that most theists were less competent at critical thinking than most atheists. Averages tell us very little or nothing about extremes.

Second, even if the most adept thinkers on the planet are theists (or atheists) that does not mean they are right. Even a genius can be wrong about some things.

Last, I am exceedingly adept at thinking but wrong about everything (as witness the testimony of my two ex-wives).

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

Whether your central tenet (that atheists are better at critical thinking than believers) is true or not, your proposed explanation (that scripture tells people to just accept whatever they are told) is incorrect; scripture says no such thing.

"But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things]" --1 Corinthians 2:15a

"Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." --1 Peter 3:15b

Christians who don't like to use critical thinking skills are not only being lazy, they are not following the directives of their own scriptures.

Hmm, I show 1 Corinthians 2:15 as this:

The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

That sounds like a totally different verse than the one you gave...

I'm not so sure your 1 Peter verse actually says what you think it does either

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect

Sounds to me like it's merely telling Christians to be ready to defend your reason for the hope that is in you...

I imagine I'll get a "you're not interpreting it right" rant...

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Whether your central tenet (that atheists are better at critical thinking than believers) is true or not, your proposed explanation (that scripture tells people to just accept whatever they are told) is incorrect; scripture says no such thing.

"But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things]" --1 Corinthians 2:15a

"Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." --1 Peter 3:15b

Christians who don't like to use critical thinking skills are not only being lazy, they are not following the directives of their own scriptures.

Great reply!

The Bereans were called, in the Scriptures, ‘noble-minded’ (Acts of the Apostles 17:11) because they made sure that what they were taught was accurate.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

Even if that were true, it would be absurd to infer from that fact that the "brightest" theists were not as "bright" as -- or even "brighter" -- than the "brightest" atheists. One simply would not know based solely on the fact that most theists were less competent at critical thinking than most atheists. Averages tell us very little or nothing about extremes.

Second, even if the most adept thinkers on the planet are theists (or atheists) that does not mean they are right. Even a genius can be wrong about some things.

Last, I am exceedingly adept at thinking but wrong about everything (as witness the testimony of my two ex-wives).

My question to him is what happens if one of their super smart theists that would wipe the floor with an atheist recants his theistic ways and becomes an atheist... Is he now dumber than the smartest theist?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Whether your central tenet (that atheists are better at critical thinking than believers) is true or not, your proposed explanation (that scripture tells people to just accept whatever they are told) is incorrect; scripture says no such thing.

"But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things]" --1 Corinthians 2:15a

"Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." --1 Peter 3:15b

Christians who don't like to use critical thinking skills are not only being lazy, they are not following the directives of their own scriptures.

But it also says things like (paraphrasing): "There are those who will remain blinded to the truth." It's a base attempt at peer-pressure and nothing more. Trying to pressure you into accepting the beliefs the book puts forth as your own, lest you become "that guy." It is completely childish and absolutely telling, in my opinion. A truly cogent statement does not need such trifling, insincere manipulations to win someone over.

As an example, what if the OP were to have stated at the end of the post: "But, we all know there are those fools who would deny that atheists are better critical thinkers than theists." What would you have thought of the poster? That is EXACTLY what The Bible does multiple times over - it only dresses it up in pretty language.

 

[Axe Elf]

I imagine I'll get a "you're not interpreting it right" rant...

That's just because you're not used to conversing with Xians who follow the scriptural admonitions to give a courteous and respectful logical defense of their beliefs, having judged all things. I prefer to educate rather than to insult or to rant.

Hmm, I show 1 Corinthians 2:15 as this:

"The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one."

That sounds like a totally different verse than the one you gave...

Well, I DID say "1 Corinthians 2:15a" in my citation; the second part of the verse was irrelevant to my point. But yes, you cited the full verse from the English Standard Version. In the Amplified Bible, the full verse reads: "But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him]."

So as you see, the Amplified version adds parenthetical clarifications, shades of meaning in the original languages that aren't necessarily present in a word-for-word translation. As such, it's a difficult version for reading aloud, but it's a great version for study purposes.

I don't see any substantive difference between the two versions we have cited, though. The meaning of the first part of the verse seems quite clear--the spiritual man puts all things on trial--he looks into things without merely accepting them on face value because he is told to. This contradicts the OP claim that scripture tells believers to accept whatever they are told without questioning it.

I'm not so sure your 1 Peter verse actually says what you think it does either

"but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect"

Sounds to me like it's merely telling Christians to be ready to defend your reason for the hope that is in you...

Yes, that's what I said it says. If you are ready to give a logical defense of your faith, then you have to have a better understanding of it than just, "Well, that's what I was told." This passage charges us with having REASONS for belief--rational faith--which would again contradict the OP claim of blind faith.

 

[Axe Elf]

But it also says things like (paraphrasing): "There are those who will remain blinded to the truth." It's a base attempt at peer-pressure and nothing more. Trying to pressure you into accepting the beliefs the book puts forth as your own, lest you become "that guy." It is completely childish and absolutely telling, in my opinion. A truly cogent statement does not need such trifling, insincere manipulations to win someone over.

As an example, what if the OP were to have stated at the end of the post: "But, we all know there are those fools who would deny that atheists are better critical thinkers than theists." What would you have thought of the poster? That is EXACTLY what The Bible does multiple times over - it only dresses it up in pretty language.

That wouldn't be a very good example, since, like most of the Bible's claims in regards to truth--it's actually a true statement--there ARE those fools who would deny that atheists are better critical thinkers than theists.

But yeah, I understand what you're saying. However, it's not usually so much a problem resulting from the Bible's true statement that there ARE those who are blinded to the truth, as it is a problem resulting from a logical thinking error in which Xians so often engage. It goes something like this:

1. God said we would be hated for telling the truth.
2. I am hated.
3. Therefore, I must be telling the truth.

But like I said, that's more a matter of correcting an irrational thinker on their faulty logic than it is a matter of correcting God on a faulty warning.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

That's just because you're not used to conversing with Xians who follow the scriptural admonitions to give a courteous and respectful logical defense of their beliefs, having judged all things. I prefer to educate rather than to insult or to rant.



Well, I DID say "1 Corinthians 2:15a" in my citation; the second part of the verse was irrelevant to my point. But yes, you cited the full verse from the English Standard Version. In the Amplified Bible, the full verse reads: "But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him]."

So as you see, the Amplified version adds parenthetical clarifications, shades of meaning in the original languages that aren't necessarily present in a word-for-word translation. As such, it's a difficult version for reading aloud, but it's a great version for study purposes.

I don't see any substantive difference between the two versions we have cited, though. The meaning of the first part of the verse seems quite clear--the spiritual man puts all things on trial--he looks into things without merely accepting them on face value because he is told to. This contradicts the OP claim that scripture tells believers to accept whatever they are told without questioning it.



Yes, that's what I said it says. If you are ready to give a logical defense of your faith, then you have to have a better understanding of it than just, "Well, that's what I was told." This passage charges us with having REASONS for belief--rational faith--which would again contradict the OP claim of blind faith.

I think you're just flat wrong about 1 Corinthian... Paul is talking about god in that verse. That is the context of that verse when you look at the surrounding verses... He is saying god, "He that is spiritual", judgeth all things. The second part of the verse, B (yet he himself is judged by no man), says that god cannot be judged by man.

So the verse says god is the only one who can judge in this universe, man cannot judge god.

This verse is in the bible to keep people from questioning scripture, something totally different than what you're saying.

Splitting it up into 2:15a and 2:15b is just nonsense and totally changes the meaning.

 

[shmogie]

Logic and the rest of critical thinking present information that is eternally true. Assuming an afterlife, then learning such information is far more important than learning information that just goes irrelevant or obsolete. Yet most theists, who supposedly believe in an afterlife, are less competent at critical thinking than most atheists, who don't believe in an afterlife. Yes, that's a dogmatic statement, but anyone who uses social media can see that it's clearly true. The few theists who learn critical thinking are the smart ones, who can match or beat the smartest atheists. But smart people are the minority. Among people of average IQ who engage in philosophical discussion, the atheists are more rational.

I assert that the reason for this reversal is scripture, which tells people to believe what they are told, rather than figure things out for themselves.

I am not sure that you understand logic. Logic doesn´t reveal truth, it reveals logic. A logical conclusion based upon an untrue proposition is still logical. No, atheists are no more rational than theists, and your opinion holds no value whatsoever, an opinion is just an opinion.

Perhaps if you spent less time reading social media, and more reading the Bible you would find your conclusions about it demanding anyone to believe anything is nonsense.

 

[Axe Elf]

I think you're just flat wrong about 1 Corinthian... Paul is talking about god in that verse. That is the context of that verse when you look at the surrounding verses... He is saying god, "He that is spiritual", judgeth all things. The second part of the verse, B (yet he himself is judged by no man), says that god cannot be judged by man.

So the verse says god is the only one who can judge in this universe, man cannot judge god.

This verse is in the bible to keep people from questioning scripture, something totally different than what you're saying.

Splitting it up into 2:15a and 2:15b is just nonsense and totally changes the meaning.

LOL! And now the irrational "you're not interpreting it right!" rant is on the other foot!

Okay, you are dismissed...

(Parenthetically, if you still consider yourself open to learning the truth here, you might try reading 1 Corinthians 2:14 to give yourself some context for interpreting the next verse, since you didn't like me limiting verse 15 to the relevant part only. Here they are together:

"But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated. But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him]."

I'm guessing you will still find yourself firmly in the former camp.)

 

[Sunstone]

I am not sure that you understand logic. Logic doesn´t reveal truth, it reveals logic. A logical conclusion based upon an untrue proposition is still logical. No, atheists are no more rational than theists, and your opinion holds no value whatsoever, an opinion is just an opinion.

Are you seriously arguing that because "a logical conclusion based upon an untrue proposition is still logical", "atheists are no more rational than theists"? Seriously?

Perhaps if you spent less time reading social media, and more reading the Bible you would find your conclusions about it demanding anyone to believe anything is nonsense.

I cannot express how novel and refreshingly unusual it is for someone on the net to generously offer unsolicited lifestyle advice to someone else on the net.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

LOL! And now the irrational "you're not interpreting it right!" rant is on the other foot!

Okay, you are dismissed...

Oh, well, that was a cute response... Just dismiss me because I showed you how wrong you were?

I'm sorry, but your "Amplified" Bible sucks if it turns the word judgeth in the first part of 1 Corinthian 2:15 into the word tries.

That totally changes the meaning of the verse. Every other version of the bible that I just looked at on biblehub.com says judge in the first part of the verse, NOT "tries"

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

LOL! And now the irrational "you're not interpreting it right!" rant is on the other foot!

Okay, you are dismissed...

(Parenthetically, if you still consider yourself open to learning the truth here, you might try reading 1 Corinthians 2:14 to give yourself some context for interpreting the next verse, since you didn't like me limiting verse 15 to the relevant part only. Here they are together:

"But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated. But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him]."

I'm guessing you will still find yourself firmly in the former camp.)

What does 1 Corinthian 2:15 mean?
What does 1 Corinthian 2:15 mean?

 

[Axe Elf]

Oh, well, that was a cute response... Just dismiss me because I showed you how wrong you were?

I'm sorry, but your "Amplified" Bible sucks if it turns the word judgeth in the first part of 1 Corinthian 2:15 into the word tries.

That totally changes the meaning of the verse. Every other version of the bible that I just looked at on biblehub.com says judge in the first part of the verse, NOT "tries"

No, I dismissed you because you were being irrational.

I did edit in a little explanation at the end, if you think you are still open to education on this issue.

However, if you don't understand that the word "tries" is a synonym of the word "judges," then I can't help you further. Have you ever heard of a "trial"? Heck, that's why the Amplified is so great, because it gives you all those shades of meaning that help you understand that the Greek word that means "to judge or to try" also could mean to inquire into, to question, to investigate into, to examine and to discern--all synonyms of judging or trying something.

 

[Axe Elf]

What does 1 Corinthian 2:15 mean?
What does 1 Corinthian 2:15 mean?

I told you once.
I told you twice.

If you ask me a third time, I will tell you the same truth.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

No, I dismissed you because you were being irrational.

I did edit in a little explanation at the end, if you think you are still open to education on this issue.

However, if you don't understand that the word "tries" is a synonym of the word "judges," then I can't help you further. Have you ever heard of a "trial"? Heck, that's why the Amplified is so great, because it gives you all those shades of meaning that help you understand that the Greek word that means "to judge or to try" also could mean to inquire into, to question, to investigate into, to examine and to discern--all synonyms of judging or trying something.

LOL! Wow, can't believe I missed that. Total brainfart on that one... My objection was with "man" and for some reason the way you defined "tries" set me off on a tangent. I've got two little'uns making a ruckus in the other room

But even still, you initially said this verse was about the spiritual man "examining, investigating, inquiring into, questioning, and discerning all things".

The verse clearly is saying that GOD is the only one that can judge in this universe, that man cannot judge god; NOT that the spiritual man examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things