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Featured Creationists: A Very Simple Question

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Skwim, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    This is almost certainly a breaking of the rules.

    You are obviously fairly bright. That is why I offered to go over the basics with you. You are more than capable of understanding them. It is not an insult to state that you do not understand or misuse the terms that you use and an offer to go over the basics is not an insult either. There are posters that I will not mention that probably are not bright enough to learn. A truth seeker should embrace learning. Not run from it.
     
  2. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    Sorry....

    “Since then, there has been a trend in palaeoanthropology of reducing the number of proposed species of Homo, to the point where H. erectus includes all early (Lower Paleolithic) forms of Homo sufficiently derived from H. habilis and distinct from early H. heidelbergensis (in Africa also known as H. rhodesiensis).[10] In this wider sense, H. erectus had mostly been replaced by H. heidelbergensis by about 500,000 years ago, with possible late survival in Java as late as 140,000 years ago.

    And if the cro-Magnin we find....

    “extending throughout the Last Glacial Maximum(LGM), covering the period of roughly 48,000 to 15,000 years ago, usually referred to as the Cro-Magnon. The earliest sites in Europe dated 48,000 years ago”

    Kind of hard to be a descendant when they were separated by 100,000 to 500,000 years.....

    Notice they combined all the different ones into one. That would be like combining several dog breeds into one classification and then thinking you can get an accurate picture of dog lineage.

    You all crack me up. Don’t even know your own evolutionaryvtime scales....
     
  3. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    I answered, you chose to digress and avoid. So when you got something scientific to add, let me know. Posting off topic is against the rules, yet besides one, your last 12 posts have been just that. Make it 13 since this has nothing to do with the post either, and you are wasting my time....
     
  4. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    No, they chose to classify them as such, not being able to see what mated with what from a pile of bones.

    Just as if they had never seen dogs alive and had no clue as to their lineage, and had only bones, they would do the exact same thing with them, classifying them as separate species and genera.

    I know this, you know this, everyone knows this.

    You can deny that to your hearts content but it will be only half hearted as you try to convince yourself it isn’t true....
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You misunderstood as usual. Is your grandfather ancestral to you? Yes heidelbergensis is probably more likely the direct predecessor of Cro Magnon, that does not mean that Homo erectus was not ancestral to.both. Your logic needs a tuneup.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    How have my posts been off topic? Educating you in the basics is necessary for you to have meaningful posts here. It is very on topic.
     
  7. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    And yet, creationists can and do readily believe in that ground dust metamorphoses into a living fully-grown man in Genesis 2:7 -

    One instant it is non-living dust, and in the next, a living human being. That’s magic, supernatural.

    Is this any different from equally incredible myths:
    • Enki and the goddesses Nammu and Ninmah (another name for creator goddess Ninhursag) created humans from clay and water (actually the primeval water, Aspu) (source the Sumerian Enki and Ninmah).
    • In the Akkadian/Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis, humans were created from clay and blood of slain/sacrificed god of intelligence Geshtu-Ê, by Ea (Enki) and Mami (Ninmah).
    • In the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh’s companion, Enkidu, was made from clay and water of Aspu by the goddess Aruru (yet another for Ninmah).
    • The ram-headed god Khnum creating humans from which he molded clay on his potter’s wheel.
    • The sun god, whether he is called Ra or Atum, created the first land, a mound that would eventually become his temple in Heliopolis, created men and women, when some of Ra’s tears fell on this fertile mound.
    • In various Greek myths, various heroes were “earthborn”, having sprung from rocks or soil, such as Cecrops and Erichthonius in Attica, in Athenian myths, Pelasgus in Arcadian myth and in Lelex from Laconia in Spartan myth. But perhaps the most is the myth of Cadmus, a hero who founded Thebes, and slain a dragon living in the groves, sowed the dragon’s teeth into sowed field, and armoured men sprung from the ground; only 5 of them survived, and were known as Sparti, and the Sparti were married off to Cadmus’ daughters.
    • In the myth of Perseus, some of blood that leaked from Perseus’ bag containing the severed head of the Gorgon Medusa, fell to earth, sprung from the ground were some giant scorpions as well as the sword-wielding giant/man who was named Chrysaor. Another drop of Medusa’s blood fell into the sea (Mediterranean), and the winged-horse Pegasus was born.
    All these stories from Sumerian/Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek myths have much credibilities and validity as Genesis of dust into man, that all the stories are wishful myths.

    You call yourself Justatruthseeker and yet you refused to really understand evolution, hence I don’t think you are interested in learning any real truth.

    You, like other creationists here, don't understand speciation.

    The speciation, you “think” biologists are talking about, it isn’t the same as those what the biologists are actually saying.

    Biologists are not saying that cats give birth to dogs or the other way around. This claim is unrealistic and false. No biologists are that stupid.

    The speciation they are actually talking about involved very little changes that occurred over long period of times. But the speciation occurred at species-level within genus or clade.

    You and other creationists think that speciation occurred at tribe or family level.

    The cats and dogs belonged to very different different suborders and different families, which is why cats and dogs can never produce offspring. Species of one taxonomic family cannot produce offspring of completely different taxonomic family.

    There are limitations of what can occur. There are limitations of what can occur, biologically.

    If you don’t understand this, then you really don’t understand speciation or evolution.

    Creationists also tends to forget that speciation occurred at population level, not at individual level (eg between parents and offspring).

    For instance, if you have a female pet cat, and for the last 6 years, she has given birth to one kitten each year, and one of these kitten was hairless albino, then that the result of birth defect, especially if it is the only albino cat in 100 square miles. It has nothing to do with evolution, there should be more cats born with that problem.

    Evolution is about affecting population, not a single cat.
     
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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Then why would you ask, "Which one of these [various present-day dog breeds] is transitional?" when we can't know what lies in the future? It's like asking. "what color eyes will your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great- granddaughter have?

    Not necessarily so at all. In as much as Cro-Magnons were merely a population of early Homo sapiens dating from around 40,000 to around10,000 years ago in Europe---in southwestern France to be exact---little work has been done to link them with other or earlier populations. Note, they weren't the only Homo sapiens then in existence.

    .
     
    #68 Skwim, Mar 30, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  9. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Why do you say they are all the same species? They all look different?
     
  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Wrong, not what you could understand but definitely on topic

    And you finish with more of the same spam, it is truly pathetic
     
  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    This is a pretty remarkable claim if I understand you correctly. You claim that all the variation we see in dogs was originally there in the wolf genome? So both the genes to produce large dogs (St. Bernards, say) and small dogs (take your pick) were there originally in the wolf genome?

    Now, *that* should be an easy thing to test. Are you sure you want to make this claim?
     
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  12. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    So no real objections, just an emotional response of accusations without substance.

    Science does not have a standard of proof. When you say adaptation, do you mean the evolution of traits based on genetics, physiological versatility or developmental flexibility. It is important, since most people do not understand any of it.

    Evolution takes place within a taxon. Artificially establish a limit without support is religion. Not science. Evolution takes place within all populations and is not limited to families.

    No one expects this but creationists.

    Except the evidence shows us that at one time, they were not. Evidence that you only seem to be able to address by dismissing it and waving your hands.

    There is no scientist sitting around waiting for his dog to give birth to cats. How ridiculous.

    No. It is science, based on evidence, that you obviously neither understand nor can you refute with evidence.

    Whatever you need to tell yourself in order to maintain dissonance.

    No one suggests that this is part of the theory of evolution. Scientists have not established the separate question of the origin of life. We do not know how life originated. People may believe in many different things, but those beliefs remain unsupported.

    You creationists just love to erroneously conflate the origin of life with the evolution of life. You can set clocks by it.
     
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  13. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    Did Darwin claim this about the finches? So, according to you mating is interbreeding. I was unaware of that standard. Are the dog and the leg the same species then?

    Darwin's mistakes in classification were corrected by the ornithologist he provided his bird specimens to for identification.

    How can anything you post be trusted, because you want it all to go away and be replaced by your particular belief, without question. Not to mention the fact that the bulk of your evidence is emotional appeal.

    Who is they? So you are saying that lions and tigers naturally breed in the wild? Can you cite the reports and evidence for this?

    This was observed in nature too? I am unaware of that.

    Discovering that two species can produce offspring when forced to mate does not falsify evolution.

    Most of the claims that do not hold up are the claims of creationists, but that never stops the next one from publishing them over and over.
     
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  14. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    You have certainly ignored real life.
     
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  15. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    So what are we looking at really?

    "Gradual evolutionary change by natural selection operates so slowly within established species that it cannot account for the major features of evolution. Evolutionary change tends to be concentrated within speciation events. The direction of transpecific evolution is determined by the process of species selection, which is analogous to natural selection but acts upon species within higher taxa rather than upon individuals within populations. Species selection operates on variation provided by the largely random process of speciation and favors species that speciate at high rates or survive for long periods and therefore tend to leave many daughter species. Rates of speciation can be estimated for living taxa by means of the equation for exponential increase, and are clearly higher for mammals than for bivalve mollusks."

    A theory of evolution above the species level. - PubMed - NCBI

    If estimations based on equations are a substitute for real evidence, then you are welcome to them.



    But the processes are not the same. Micro-evolution only produces variety within a specific family of creatures.
    As I have pointed out countless numbers of times, Darwin did not observe "evolution"...he probably observed "speciation" which just gave him more varieties of finches. Whether species can interbreed is irrelevant. That just keeps the varieties specific. It prevents a mish-mash of non-specific "half whatever" creatures that could not be classified. Whenever we see a bird or an animal, we know what it is because they are programmed to breed only with their own "kind".



    Rubbish. Whales were not once walking furry land animals. They were specifically created for aquatic life, just as the furry land dweller was created for terrestrial life.
    Their aquatic features are not accidental mutations, but beautifully designed for the life they were created to live...including their abundant food sources. The largest creature on earth feasts on the smallest....and weighs several tons. The habitats of all creatures were created in expectation of their arrival. As were their food sources and even the air they breathed, and the water they drank. Without precipitation dumping fresh water on the earth, no land animals could live.....without salt in the oceans, marine creatures couldn't either.

    Science seems to allow for a lot of fortunate accidents in its evolution story. None of it adds up though. How many flukes does it take before you statistically run out of numbers?



    Ditto. :) You stick to your opinion and I'll stick to mine. Those who are interested enough to really check out the evidence for themselves will make their own decisions.[/QUOTE]
    Speciation is the evolution of a new creatures. Semantics does not change that. Kind has no valid meaning in science and arbitrarily assigning taxonomic family as the definition of kind is invalid and does nothing to clarify the use of kind or make it a science term.
     
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  16. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    Actually observing the mating of members of a species is important and useful evidence, but it is not a necessary criteria for establishing taxonomic placement. Claiming that it is illustrates your bias, your ignorance and that you have no real support for your denial of science.

    You contrived a story about dog classification, then you claim everyone can know something contrived that did not actually occur.

    It can be denied and should be, by any reasonable person.

    You do not have the first clue of what a taxonomist or a systematicist does do you.
     
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  17. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    What I see is that in his use of dog skulls, he has chosen characters that are obviously very plastic and not characters that a taxonomist would use to determine relationships within dogs. Then he falsely equates the picture of the dog skulls to that of various species of Ceratopsidae with the conclusion that they are not different species either.

    His entire argument is contrived on his emotional state, personal desires and the confabulation of the evidence.
     
  18. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps your confusion stems from the fact that you don't realize that the word "evolution" has two different meanings. In any case, microevolution and macroevolution are just subsets describing some of the processes of Evolution.

    However, I can understand why you would want to blame science for "deliberately misleading". It suits your agenda. It's similar to your repeated calls for "proof" even though you have been told many, many times that science deals in evidence, not proofs.
     
  19. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    I noticed that all of her arguments were assertions used dismissively, and not one point based on any evidence.

    What is more ironic, is that if proof were used by science and was provided, they would ignore it, deny it or dismiss it.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You know, I was wondering why a "Christian" would so strongly defend unprovable science.....but researching the Methodist church, I discovered why. You guys sold out to science long ago! When choosing between God (as in directed creation) and the musings of science (everything happened by undirected chance) apparently your founder didn't want to appear to be "uneducated" or "unintelligent".....was it about saving "face" rather than saving "faith"?

    The official position as stated on the Methodist website is..."The official statement on Science and Technology says in part, "We find that science’s descriptions of cosmological, geological, and biological evolution are not in conflict with theology."

    Actually they are right.....there is no conflict with their "theology"....but there is conflict with the scriptures.

    That said, I understand your rhetoric is as empty as all the other people who stake their lives on assumption and assertion rather than stick to the directions in their Creator's instruction manual. We are given that choice for a reason IMO.

    LOL...yes we know. But the fact remains...if you can't prove something, you have no facts...you have 'beliefs'. Your church has simply swapped one belief system for another....according to Jesus, neither will be of benefit at the end of the day however. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    This is why so many people accept it.....it is marketed very carefully, making all the science fiction look like science fact. It counts on ignorance and gullibility in some....a desire to be accepted as "intelligent" and "educated" by others.....and also as a way to kill God off for the avowed atheists. Depending on your agenda. it serves all those who question the Creator. I wonder who came up with it?

    Using adaptation to suggest the slow evolutionary process of macro-evolution, is an unprovable assertion, not based on anything that can be established by scientific testing of any kind. Suggestions are rife in all the literature. Suggestions are not facts.

    Have you never heard of "leading the witness" in a court case? No one leads their witnesses more than science in this issue.

    Where did the originals come from? For there to be a "family" there needs to be parents who have the same genetics and DNA code. Science guesses about the processes and provides detailed charts containing all the assumptions about the "branching".....but they can't produce the roots of the tree. Nothing grows without roots.....roots cannot grow without a seed germinating.....if science wants to present a tree, it needs to provide the whole picture.

    Christ was a creationist. In fact, he was personally involved in creation, so in order for a "Christian" to reject creation is to reject Christ and his direct role in it. The scripture he used contained the Genesis account of creation and he referred to it as fact.

    It comes down to choice then doesn't it? Those who choose science as their 'religion' (belief system) rather than to accept the word of God on faith have to answer to the judge of all of us, not me.

    Please provide this "evidence" that canines and felines were not always members of their set taxonomies. The only proviso I make is that it must be based on real evidence, which means there can be no assumption, assertions or suggestions included in that evidence....just provable facts. OK?

    Let's see how you go with that......?

    There are no creationists sitting around doing that either. Are you suggesting that those who believe in an Intelligent Creator are of necessity, "stupid"? Or does it just suit the evolutionist's air of superiority to imply that this is the case?

    Science cannot provide any evidence that macro-evolution is even possible, let alone produce real evidence to back up their guesswork. Can you produce proof that whales were once four legged furry land animals? Again, there can be no guesswork....just real proof. If you cannot provide real proof, it means you have no facts.

    I believe that the great con artist has woven his magic, getting perfectly intelligent people to accept a fairy story. It apparently works on believers and non-believers alike......:shrug:
    Do you accept the existence of this personage that Jesus identified as "the ruler of this world"?...or did he evolve too? (1 John 5:19)

    Not that you could be suffering from this very affliction yourself...? :oops:

    If you are a Christian, you can't have your cake and eat it too in this issue. A sell out is a sell out.
    There is no room for evolution in the Bible.....what there is room for is the fact that the creative "days" were NOT 24 hour periods. YEC is a reason why so many discard creation as ridiculous. The literal 6,000 year, 24 hour day scenario does not fit creation at all. But if the creative days were each millions of earth years in length, then slow and deliberate, separate acts of creation are accommodated. It also allows for an old earth because there is no timeframe between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

    The preparation of the earth for habitation may also have taken millions of years. The Creator is not constrained by earth time. Creation fits with what science knows......it just doesn't fit what science assumes.

    Here we go :rolleyes:....typical evolutionists response....a wave of the hand and claims that the issue of how creatures may have changed over time and origin of life are unrelated......what nonsense!! If you find out who the originator of life is.....every other question about natural science is answered. If the creative days were not 24 hours then creation fits what science can prove.

    LOL....where did life come from is the most important question we could ask, in case you hadn't noticed. Science cannot answer it....and they don't look like they ever will.....to them, life is just a fluke, and undirected chance made it into everything we see on earth and even in the universe.....who can believe that? :confused:

    I often hear about this "magical proofing" used by evolutionists to deride those who believe in the Creator......but it appears that evolutionists have their own version of "magical proofing".....but they just can't admit it.

    The snow job is pretty complete if you ask me..... :D
     
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