creationism, the solution to preserving religion in modernity

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

It is clear that religion is under heavy pressure in modernized, and modernizing, countries. What modernizing does is to rationalize every process in society towards optimal efficiency. Optimizing economy, education, health or whatever. It is not just religion that get's pressured by modernization, but generally also marriage, family, friendship, community, are exploited to bend to optimization processes.

The reason family-life and religion are typically crushed in modernization processes is because one simply cannot calculate love, or measure God. Family-life revolves around love, and religion revolves around God. Modernization requires calculation of an opitimum, if it cannot be calculated then it is ignored, which means both love and God are ignored. But creationism can guide the modernization beast and protect religion and family.

What creationist philosophy does is to disinguish between matters of fact and matters of opinion. What it is that chooses is a matter of opinion, and what it is that is chosen is a matter of fact. It is the only philosophy with which one can establish both the fact that the earth exists, and form the opinion that the earth is beautiful (or ugly). This logical foundation for opinion is what provides for robust opinions to guide any modernization processes.

 

[DawudTalut]

It is clear that religion is under heavy pressure in modernized, and modernizing, countries.

Peace be on you.
In my humble opinion,
= West is just leaving religion because for many reasons; their majority religion could not stand and match new discoveries and ill state of their clerics.

= Muslims and clerics did not do their basic duty to take the message to them in proper way, they used swords and guns in response of any unjust they felt, instead peace and love.

= Selfish reasons, 'Hi, bye, who cares, have fun etc'

= When West understand, they respond nicely. Many of their acts are what Islam teaches already teaches.

What modernizing does is to rationalize every process in society towards optimal efficiency. Optimizing economy, education, health or whatever. It is not just religion that get's pressured by modernization, but generally also marriage, family, friendship, community, are exploited to bend to optimization processes.

After world war, West progressed fast, yet their family values were much better.
It does not seem 'optimal' thing.

The reason family-life and religion are typically crushed in modernization processes is because one simply cannot calculate love, or measure God. Family-life revolves around love, and religion revolves around God. Modernization requires calculation of an opitimum, if it cannot be calculated then it is ignored, which means both love and God are ignored.

Family-life revolves around love...... True!....... but love for God and related aspects, parents, siblings, wife, children, relatives, community, neighbors, people, all creation. So what is being ignored is broader canvas.

But creationism can guide the modernization beast and protect religion and family.

What creationist philosophy does is to disinguish between matters of fact and matters of opinion.
What it is that chooses is a matter of opinion, and what it is that is chosen is a matter of fact. It is the only philosophy with which one can establish both the fact that the earth exists, and form the opinion that the earth is beautiful (or ugly). This logical foundation for opinion is what provides for robust opinions to guide any modernization processes.

Choosing matter of fact and matter of opinion is not possible.
If supposed word of God and work of God does not match, people will go with what is proven.
Holy Quran uniquely presents itself as word of God, with which work of God (proven science) is matched and all aspects of life.

Good wishes.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Choosing matter of fact and matter of opinion is not possible.

...facts are forced by evidence, but opinions can only be arrived at by choosing them.

Another muslim here talked about emotions as consisting of electrochemistry in the brain just like an atheist. That's got nothing to do with faith anymore. That's Islamic pseudoscience. I can see muslims around, and I know, and everybody knows, that they will not be muslims again in 30 / 40 years or something.

 

[DawudTalut]

...facts are forced by evidence, but opinions can only be arrived at by choosing them.

Another muslim here talked about emotions as consisting of electrochemistry in the brain just like an atheist. That's got nothing to do with faith anymore. That's Islamic pseudoscience. I can see muslims around, and I know, and everybody knows, that they will not be muslims again in 30 / 40 years or something.

Peace be on you.
Holy Quran asks to ponder at natural phenomenon and to find results for the goodness of humanity. It does not hurt faith at all.

For example the whole life of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) was spent before Meccans, they knew he was truthful. When he announced divine message, pure hearted people immediately believed him.

Now, in this age, if one has to take message to people, one has to follow the holy model of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) first and convince people about the truth with wisdom. Quran says convey the message with hikmah /wisdom.

The evidence show evolution is part of process and Quran supports it [creation+guided evolution], then we have to accept it.

Human has neural network works with electrochemistry and many things but nothing contradict faith. One sees a scene or something, visual goes through eyes into brain and processes start. Faith asks a believer to control the self what to see and what not to see, thus a faithful get double benefit; safety from useful agitation of emotions and pleasure of God by following Him.

Base of faith is perfect wisdom. The true Islam is emerging (as promised by Allah and Holy Prophet -pbuh) with reminder of peace, love, compassion, knowledge, wisdom and tolerance through Ahmadiyya Muslim Khilafat of Promised Reformer (The Promised Messiah Mahdi, plz find time to study alislam.org , mta.tv ) and you can directly seek Allah's direction in this regard. The true Islam is the culmination of religious evolution and it asks to pay rights of God and rights of humanity. This message of true Islam can never die, it is written inside human. It is to give life.

Best wishes.

Edited

 

[TashaN]

What is the relationship between creationism and believing in religion as a whole?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It is clear that religion is under heavy pressure in modernized, and modernizing, countries. What modernizing does is to rationalize every process in society towards optimal efficiency. Optimizing economy, education, health or whatever. It is not just religion that get's pressured by modernization, but generally also marriage, family, friendship, community, are exploited to bend to optimization processes.

The reason family-life and religion are typically crushed in modernization processes is because one simply cannot calculate love, or measure God. Family-life revolves around love, and religion revolves around God. Modernization requires calculation of an opitimum, if it cannot be calculated then it is ignored, which means both love and God are ignored. But creationism can guide the modernization beast and protect religion and family.

What creationist philosophy does is to disinguish between matters of fact and matters of opinion. What it is that chooses is a matter of opinion, and what it is that is chosen is a matter of fact. It is the only philosophy with which one can establish both the fact that the earth exists, and form the opinion that the earth is beautiful (or ugly). This logical foundation for opinion is what provides for robust opinions to guide any modernization processes.

I think that's part of the equation- though maybe it only applies to a certain type of 'modernization' - the most extreme examples being Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, KIm Jong Il's N Korea- etc, 'modernization' was the explicit strategy, and religion was seen as redundant, needing stamped out in favor of state atheism, & state 'science'

But of course this resulted in anything but modernization, and conversely as those systems recede in China and Russia, religiosity, modernity, prosperity are returning hand in hand.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Human has neural network works with electrochemistry and many things but nothing contradict faith.

Such a wordcontraption of "theistic evolution" has nothing to do really with Islam. Islam is about creation, it is about how things are chosen in the universe. Religion is not much functional when you do not directly refer to decisions made.

Love and hate cannot be measured at all, and if you propose that you can measure them, then in principle you are destroying all opinion, all faith.

You are simply falling to the pressure of the West to replace all opinion with fact.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

What is the relationship between creationism and believing in religion as a whole?

Because creationism philosophically validates subjectivity, opinion. That's what is required for religion, opinion.

Materialism, which is enormously prevalent in the West, only validates objectivity, facts. Creationism validates both objectivity and subjectivity, both fact and opinion.

 

[DawudTalut]

Such a wordcontraption of "theistic evolution" has nothing to do really with Islam. Islam is about creation, it is about how things are chosen in the universe.

Peace be on you.
The very word al-Rab, which is in the start of Holy Quran:
" ....the same attribute (

) Al-Rabb is often translated as 'The Provident'. This indicates that God the Creator also provides for all the subsequent stages of development of His creation. This leaves no doubt whatsoever as to the fact that the Quran speaks of creation only in step by step progressive stages which are well provided for, categorically rejecting the concept of spontaneous generation...."
Source:Life in the Perspective of Quranic Revelations—A Brief Introductory Chapter

There are verse mentioned in above link too.

Second link @ https://www.alislam.org/topics/quran/QURANIC CONCEPT OF EVOLUTION.pdf

You are simply falling to the pressure of the West to replace all opinion with fact.

If West found something which confirms something in Quran, we should be thankful to them and in return convey them the best ways of life. Muslims should have found it much earlier through science.

West has learned much from Muslims centuries ago.

Truth can be found at any place, East, West, North or South....Holy Quran has its own unique pressure.

West is still not sure about extraterrestrial life but Holy Quran tells:

[42:30] And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together when He pleases.

دابة
" Da'bbah covers all animals which creep or move along the surface of the earth. It does not apply to animals which fly or swim. It is certainly not applicable to any form of spiritual life. In Arabic a ghost will never be referred to as da'bbah, nor an angel for that matter. The second part of the same verse speaks not only of the possibility of extraterrestrial life, but it categorically declares that it does exist—a claim which even the most modern scientific researchers have not been able to make so far with any measure of certainty. Yet, this is not all that this verse reveals. Wonder upon wonder is added when we read at the end of this verse, that He (Allah) will bring together the life in the heavenly bodies and the life on earth when He so pleases..."
Source:The Quran and Extraterrestrial Life

Why should we feel under any pressure? There is no iota of such thing. Need is to get out of depressions and move ahead by the grace of Allah the Exalted. The true philosophy in Holy Quran.

Good wishes.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Why should we feel under any pressure? There is no iota of such thing. Need is to get out of depressions and move ahead by the grace of Allah the Exalted. The true philosophy in Holy Quran.

You can see the near perfect spiritual defilement on this forum, which is rampant in the West. There is no formal place provided for subjectivity, no place for belief in God, but also no formal place for an opinion that anything is beautiful or ugly. Fact, fact, fact, that is all that is in the West.

And then sure, opinion is also accepted, ofcourse. It is not really accepted, but assumed without thought. So the whole intellectual machinery works against any emotion, against opinion, surpressing opinion and destroying it, but on the other hand opinion is just assumed naturally.

It is just a head vs heart struggle, commonly human. But then the struggle is pursued with systematic intellectual force of science to destroy the heart, and reach complete spiritual defilement.

It is no coincedence that the holocaust happened in the West, no coincedence either that communism comes from the West, risking total thermonuclear war. If there had been a thermonuclear war, then you and I wouldn't be talking to each other. Very popular at universities they were, nazism and communism. Full of eugenicists the universities were, and lots and lots of workingparty revolutionaries.

You cannot be a muslim in a Western country if you do not know exactly what the distinction is between a fact and an opinion. Or else the religion in your family will be swept away by social darwinist pseudoscience. That's practical reality.

 

[TashaN]

I don't know how much you know about evolution but so far i didn't find anything in it which contradict with the Quran or the Hadith.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I don't know how much you know about evolution but so far i didn't find anything in it which contradict with the Quran or the Hadith.

It is against all subjectivity, including against Islam, to make the existence of love, hate, God and the soul into a matter of fact issue.

 

[TashaN]

It is against all subjectivity, including against Islam, to make the existence of love, hate, God and the soul into a matter of fact issue.

I don't understand. Can you elaborate please?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I don't understand. Can you elaborate please?

I already did explain it several times in this thread. The correct fundamental understanding is creationism, where you divide reality up in what chooses, and what is chosen. The existence of all what chooses is a matter of opinion, the existence of all what is chosen is a matter of fact. For example; you make a decision, we can see as fact the result of the decision, we cannot see your soul which makes the decision turn out the way it does. The existence of the soul, and what love or hate is in it, is a matter of opinion, faith.

In science currently freedom is not accepted as real. So what you see is that there are only explanations in terms of being forced, including for people. So science is destroying all knowledge about how things are chosen in the universe, and with that it is destroying all subjectivity (expression of emotion), because subjectivity only applies with freedom.

That is why it is no coincedence that the holocaust occurred in the West, in Germany, because the people in Germany do not acknowledge freedom is a reality, and reject subjectivity because of science.

 

[TashaN]

I already did explain it several times in this thread. The correct fundamental understanding is creationism, where you divide reality up in what chooses, and what is chosen. The existence of all what chooses is a matter of opinion, the existence of all what is chosen is a matter of fact. For example; you make a decision, we can see as fact the result of the decision, we cannot see your soul which makes the decision turn out the way it does. The existence of the soul, and what love or hate is in it, is a matter of opinion, faith.

In science currently freedom is not accepted as real. So what you see is that there are only explanations in terms of being forced, including for people. So science is destroying all knowledge about how things are chosen in the universe, and with that it is destroying all subjectivity (expression of emotion), because subjectivity only applies with freedom.

That is why it is no coincedence that the holocaust occurred in the West, in Germany, because the people in Germany do not acknowledge freedom is a reality, and reject subjectivity because of science.

We can't generalize like that. If you say science was the cause of the holocaust then we can say as well that we can't use knives to cook because it might kill.

Science is just ... science. They search, observe, record, interpret ..... then again, search more, observe, record, then interpret. You can disagree with the interpretation but you can't disagree with solid findings. Also, there are religious studies, human behavior, psychology, sociology, etc which deal with emotions, feelings, etc. You can't blame pure science just because they are not heading toward the things you want to search about.

Go a head and do your own research, even make a new spiritual branch of science, and no one is going to stop you.

Regarding creationism, i'm not with Christianity's approach toward the creationism story. I depend on what Quran and Hadith says and as i said earlier, nothing in them which goes contrary to evolution theory.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

We can't generalize like that. If you say science was the cause of the holocaust then we can say as well that we can't use knives to cook because it might kill.

Science is just ... science. They search, observe, record, interpret ..... then again, search more, observe, record, then interpret. You can disagree with the interpretation but you can't disagree with solid findings. Also, there are religious studies, human behavior, psychology, sociology, etc which deal with emotions, feelings, etc. You can't blame pure science just because they are not heading toward the things you want to search about.

Go a head and do your own research, even make a new spiritual branch of science, and no one is going to stop you.

Regarding creationism, i'm not with Christianity's approach toward the creationism story. I depend on what Quran and Hadith says and as i said earlier, nothing in them which goes contrary to evolution theory.

As expected you understand nothing about what I said, which means that you have no idea how subjectivity, faith, works.

There is no room left for any subjectivity when the existence of love and hate are made into a matter of scientific fact. Your naive acceptance of the supposed facts of Western science leads you to total spiritual defilement.

 

[TashaN]

As expected you understand nothing about what I said, which means that you have no idea how subjectivity, faith, works.

There is no room left for any subjectivity when the existence of love and hate are made into a matter of scientific fact. Your naive acceptance of the supposed facts of Western science leads you to total spiritual defilement.

Western science is great and can be used for both, good and evil, just like anything else in life. If i'm naive then please enlighten me. I'm sure if you don't intend to convince people, you would have kept all of this to yourself. Since you brought it up, i think it's natural that you try to explain what you mean with convincing arguments, otherwise you are wasting your time.

I don't see why you have a problem with how they see the world. If they want to measure love and hate, program it, analyze it, then interpret it in a scientific way, then why does it bother you? They have their version and side of life, and you have yours.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I don't see why you have a problem with how they see the world. If they want to measure love and hate, program it, analyze it, then interpret it in a scientific way, then why does it bother you? They have their version and side of life, and you have yours.

...they leave no room for subjectivity, expression of emotion. Western society is full of such anti-emotion people like the stereotype of mister Spock. It is a big problem in my life, and in society generally. It's a great bother for family life, friendship, country, religion, everything where subjectivity is an issue.

 

[TashaN]

...they leave no room for subjectivity, expression of emotion. Western society is full of such anti-emotion people like the stereotype of mister Spock. It is a big problem in my life, and in society generally. It's a great bother for family life, friendship, country, religion, everything where subjectivity is an issue.

And what you gonna do about it? Are you willing to study, research, invest time and money to publish new findings to prove them wrong?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

And what you gonna do about it? Are you willing to study, research, invest time and money to publish new findings to prove them wrong?

No, I am just here on the internet validating subjectivity. This is a matter of logic. They see something happening in the brain with an MRI scanner, I cannot deny it occurs. But what they then do is to attach the word love and hate to what they see in the brain, and this is an error of logic.

Why don't you as a muslim on a religious forum champion faith, which is a form of subjectivity? Why do you not defend opinion against pseudoscience encroaching on it?