Can you imagine Moses, Jesus or Mohammed saying its OK to believe that some of their teachings are wrong, or that the God they spent so much time getting people to love actually didn't do things quite the way they said? I mean, its not as if the theory of evolution requires a primer in biochemistry to be able to understand; people 2000 years ago would have got the general gist of it if that had been the official line. But it wasn't.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Ok so say someone believes the story of Adam and Eve to be a nice metaphor for how the Earth and humanity was created, but they do not believe it to be literal, but they follow all the teachings of Christ and the New Testament, is that person a "real" Christian?
Not as I see it. Then the Ressurection could be a metaphor, Pauls revelation could be a metaphor, and so on. It's a slippery slope argument, but we're arguing definitions here. A lot of Christianity relies on the Adam & Eve story of original sin; at the least it explains why mankind has to labour in the dirt and suffer childpains. If it was meant to be a metaphor, like Jesus' parables, it should have said so - people have been taking it literally for thousands of years, so its a bit rough for God to suddenly say He was kidding, or we 'weren't ready'. And if its not important, it wouldn't have been included. That's why if you want your religion to last, be vague.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Why does believing a creation story to be a metaphor, invalidate all other important "stories" of the faith?
Maize said:
Yes, because they believe in christianity's gods, if not it's mythology.
They still exist no matter what direction you're facing, so again, these are superfluous, and the "within" direction musts a metaphor and not an actual direction, as within a person is merely an area defined by before and behind.
I understand it, it's just useless and somewhat egocentric, not objective in any sense whatsoever.
That point is still only 3 coordinates. Say the cube is 4 measuring units, that point would be 2,2,2. Stargates just need loads of chevrons because of the dialing system.
Master Hoomer
Member
good grief :shock: think what you like death...I merely pointed out the 7 driections as they are biblical...and the days of creation are also 7....
and also the 7 directions are a part of MANY religions.....
think what you like! :roll: :roll: :roll:
I take it you are an athiest death?
and also the 7 directions are a part of MANY religions.....
think what you like! :roll: :roll: :roll:
I take it you are an athiest death?
aleric,
Being Jewish I can't speak to the way that Christians believe the bible literally. However, even in Genesis my branch of Judaism does NOT take it literally. Cherry pick? nope. In fact, I can accuse Christianity of that with the "original sin" notion that is not found in Genesis.
ah well.
I suppose it's in how a certain religion interprets each others scriptures. I have just as much trouble when I read the Christian bible.
A friend of mine ( a Conservative Jew) who is married to a Chasidic gentleman also doesn't buy taking Genesis literally. For instance, she and I shared the thought with Christians that we believe that the story of Adam and Eve included the fact that others did live upon the earth at that point.
( remember Nod and the wife bit for Cain?
Still say to my branch of religion the "day" was the beginning of an action ( by G-d ) to the end of that action.
Even back then the first action was the splitting of the waters with the wind. that was before even light and darkness ( for the world). How long did that take? Before the first sunset and sunrise? SEe what I mean?
How long did that take with no sunrise or sunset? no way of knowing.
Being Jewish I can't speak to the way that Christians believe the bible literally. However, even in Genesis my branch of Judaism does NOT take it literally. Cherry pick? nope. In fact, I can accuse Christianity of that with the "original sin" notion that is not found in Genesis.
ah well.
I suppose it's in how a certain religion interprets each others scriptures. I have just as much trouble when I read the Christian bible.
A friend of mine ( a Conservative Jew) who is married to a Chasidic gentleman also doesn't buy taking Genesis literally. For instance, she and I shared the thought with Christians that we believe that the story of Adam and Eve included the fact that others did live upon the earth at that point.
( remember Nod and the wife bit for Cain?
Still say to my branch of religion the "day" was the beginning of an action ( by G-d ) to the end of that action.
Even back then the first action was the splitting of the waters with the wind. that was before even light and darkness ( for the world). How long did that take? Before the first sunset and sunrise? SEe what I mean?
How long did that take with no sunrise or sunset? no way of knowing.
Master Hoomer
Member
:lol: ok death....well personally I agree creationism is "bull"...
creation stories are POETIC....as you say "bull"...
I think only a silly billy takes them literally....
I only spoke of the 7 directions as it appears frequently in creation myths....and becaiuse I use them daily in meditation....
I think of myself as a penentheist...one who believes all is god ..like a pantheist...but also believes that god is more than everything....
I think some questions arte stupid...like creationism vs evolution...lol
creation stories are POETIC....as you say "bull"...
I think only a silly billy takes them literally....
I only spoke of the 7 directions as it appears frequently in creation myths....and becaiuse I use them daily in meditation....
I think of myself as a penentheist...one who believes all is god ..like a pantheist...but also believes that god is more than everything....
I think some questions arte stupid...like creationism vs evolution...lol
Master Hoomer
Member
panentheist sorry!
I have posted the Hebrew words in Genesis (usually Christians don't know anything about it) and evolution and genetic (for the ones who believe both are accurate science, I will say genetics is science, the other is theory disguised as "science") and how do this science can be interpreted in literal way (for the Jews who give so much attention to the metaphysical Hebrew letter of Torah that don't even have time to study the physical !) in case anybody is interested (perhaps Master Hoomer who read my posting about Lillith):
www.religiousforums.com/parkweb/viewtopic.php?t=613&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
www.religiousforums.com/parkweb/viewtopic.php?t=613&start=15
www.religiousforums.com/parkweb/viewtopic.php?t=613&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
www.religiousforums.com/parkweb/viewtopic.php?t=613&start=15
About Big Bang idea, choosing between Moses and Hawkings the discussion went to 9 pages already, the Moderator felt embarrased and hid the 127 replies and views disturbed with the details I was giving until finally I was expelled lacking more arguments; as usual several participants came along and little by little you see since they really didn't investigate beyond the surface they dissapear, vanish gradually until there's someone obstinated enough to defy another in a "mano a mano" struggle. I think you should witness that argument of 9 pages starting with Big Bang and ending in ancient Sumerian and Maya knowledge unacceptable for the defenders of neo-sacred cow called "science". But how many do really have an idea what they talk about?
The site is:
www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=22384&page=1&pp=15
Then follow the pages if you dare...
www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=22384&page=1&pp=15
Then follow the pages if you dare...
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I agree with Death.
There's definitely a defensible argument in saying "I believe God created Man- through evolution". I used to believe that. The problem is, lots of phenomena that were once thought to be the act of God have now been widely accepted as normal occurances in nature, requiring no supernatural intervention- like gravity. No one says "God makes things go down- by using gravity". Still, I agree with Runt- there doesn't have to be a conflict (the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution- they teach it at my Catholic school).
But to say evolution didn't happen is, well, really kind of laughable nowadays (check out your local museum for fossils on display-including ones of early man). Lots of books have been published trying to "prove" that evolution never happened, but these books are generally not taken seriously by biologists other than a very small percentage of highly religious ones (these books are frighteningly similar to all those books on Holocaust Revisionism).
There's definitely a defensible argument in saying "I believe God created Man- through evolution". I used to believe that. The problem is, lots of phenomena that were once thought to be the act of God have now been widely accepted as normal occurances in nature, requiring no supernatural intervention- like gravity. No one says "God makes things go down- by using gravity". Still, I agree with Runt- there doesn't have to be a conflict (the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution- they teach it at my Catholic school).
But to say evolution didn't happen is, well, really kind of laughable nowadays (check out your local museum for fossils on display-including ones of early man). Lots of books have been published trying to "prove" that evolution never happened, but these books are generally not taken seriously by biologists other than a very small percentage of highly religious ones (these books are frighteningly similar to all those books on Holocaust Revisionism).
OctoberTheHottie
Member
Ok, coming into the convo pretty late here I will just state that like Runt, I believe creation was by the hand of evolution, by God, whatever that may be.
And as ErikaLee said, my fiance thinks the aliens brought about our existence here. I am not completely aposed to this, but I am lacking some real logial thought on that one however speculative that may be??
I am not a big person on proof, because I believe we will never truly have it. As a species we use what, like 10% of our brain, we would never ever be able to comprehend anything on a spiritual level even if it were drawn, spelled, or charaded out for us, we will never as humans beable to comprehend anything on a divine level..... That is just me...
Go Faith!!!! lol, j/k
ps. silly billy?? that is real nice : |
And as ErikaLee said, my fiance thinks the aliens brought about our existence here. I am not completely aposed to this, but I am lacking some real logial thought on that one however speculative that may be??
I am not a big person on proof, because I believe we will never truly have it. As a species we use what, like 10% of our brain, we would never ever be able to comprehend anything on a spiritual level even if it were drawn, spelled, or charaded out for us, we will never as humans beable to comprehend anything on a divine level..... That is just me...
Go Faith!!!! lol, j/k
ps. silly billy?? that is real nice : |
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Hey!! lol
The problem is, Christians, Muslims- you name it- they all DO claim to understand the spiritual world. They have very complex and intricate beliefs about the spiritual world-beliefs which they all claim are not beliefs, but fact. Now, if we humans "can't possibly comprehend" God etc, then that's the end of the debate- no religion is valid, since they all claim to know about something which they can't begin to comprehend. The argument that humans can't possibly understand spiritual things is just a fallback argument that religions use when their beleifs don't hold up against logic.
Not a big person on proof? Well, neither were the witch burners or inquisitors of medieval Europe. :roll: We just have to be careful when beleifs in things without proof affect our behavior.
The problem is, Christians, Muslims- you name it- they all DO claim to understand the spiritual world. They have very complex and intricate beliefs about the spiritual world-beliefs which they all claim are not beliefs, but fact. Now, if we humans "can't possibly comprehend" God etc, then that's the end of the debate- no religion is valid, since they all claim to know about something which they can't begin to comprehend. The argument that humans can't possibly understand spiritual things is just a fallback argument that religions use when their beleifs don't hold up against logic.
Not a big person on proof? Well, neither were the witch burners or inquisitors of medieval Europe. :roll: We just have to be careful when beleifs in things without proof affect our behavior.
OctoberTheHottie
Member
Yeah, sorry, but I do have problems with people saying that thier beliefs are 'True' or 'Facts' both of those things are a matter of opinion, you have to put your belief into them before they can be true. Not to say that these people don't believe thier beliefs are facts or true, and most certainly they have a right to, I would not say they are wrong, but I also have the right to say they are not facts or true to me. I am not one to use my beliefs to discreadit anyone else, just because I believe something, it has no effect on anyone else, it is my belief.
Saying we will never be able to comprehend God or spirituality doens't me we shouldnt' try, it just means that we don't have the knowledge or understanding yet. Just as thousands of years ago people had no idea or understanding of germs, it was not possible until science evolved, and now we do, but they still got sick and didn't know why?? I say we will never comprehend it because the use of our brain at this point wouldn't permit it. Trying to understand God is like trying to explain to your dog how to balence a check book, the comrehension just isn't there.... I dont think it is a fall back, I am no religion and I defend nothing, not even myself, I doesn't matter to me if anyone else agrees, I just state what I believe, and listen to others, I can decide if I agree with them and try to further myself because to me religion isn't about God or understanding things, it is about making myself a better person because only pure positve energy can be absorbed by God (which I believe to be an energy source).
But your last statement I totally agree with, I can see how things could easily get out of hand in a case like that. But like the Pagans, Lest Ye Harm None.... Killing in the name of religion is still killing.... War, that is another story, I have no opinion on that yet, well, actually I do, it is one thing to give your life to fate as to whether you live or die as you are fighting and taking other lives, but clearly different when you are tying someone to a stake and sitting back roasting marshmallows clear from danger, lol...
Saying we will never be able to comprehend God or spirituality doens't me we shouldnt' try, it just means that we don't have the knowledge or understanding yet. Just as thousands of years ago people had no idea or understanding of germs, it was not possible until science evolved, and now we do, but they still got sick and didn't know why?? I say we will never comprehend it because the use of our brain at this point wouldn't permit it. Trying to understand God is like trying to explain to your dog how to balence a check book, the comrehension just isn't there.... I dont think it is a fall back, I am no religion and I defend nothing, not even myself, I doesn't matter to me if anyone else agrees, I just state what I believe, and listen to others, I can decide if I agree with them and try to further myself because to me religion isn't about God or understanding things, it is about making myself a better person because only pure positve energy can be absorbed by God (which I believe to be an energy source).
But your last statement I totally agree with, I can see how things could easily get out of hand in a case like that. But like the Pagans, Lest Ye Harm None.... Killing in the name of religion is still killing.... War, that is another story, I have no opinion on that yet, well, actually I do, it is one thing to give your life to fate as to whether you live or die as you are fighting and taking other lives, but clearly different when you are tying someone to a stake and sitting back roasting marshmallows clear from danger, lol...
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
The Tao trying to help us understand the eternal ways of the universe is like us trying to tell a dog about internal combustion engine. But that doesn't mean he doesn't know the sound of the engine, or the smell, or the sight. But he doesn't understand why or how it works. We understand what we perceive around us. But that doesn't mean its the ultimate truth. It is however part of the truth though. Being that what the dog hears, smells, and sees isn't false. Its just not the whole picture. We are like that with spirituality. We hear, smell, see, etc.. what we perceive as spiritual. That doesn't necessarily make it false. They are part of the truth in some way or another. And they allow us to understand the universe better.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
I'm certenly pro-evolution... there is too much Good evidence...
I'm certenly sceptical of the adam and eve stories and the aliens genetically engeneered us theories...
I don't buy thier evidence so far....
wa:-do
I'm certenly sceptical of the adam and eve stories and the aliens genetically engeneered us theories...
I don't buy thier evidence so far....
wa:-do