questfortruth
Well-Known Member
You mean the first stage was without space and without time?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Creation from Nothing using math
- Thread starter questfortruth
- Start date
-
- Tags
- infinity mathematics
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Without space is energy mass cold held.
Without time but yet to become alight as a burning gas.
How to do conversion by a human theist in sciences I want gods energy.
From earths mass first position humans sciences practiced.
Is not any cosmic theme as no man owns a reason why creation exists as so many diverse and Multi varied bodies. Seen first.
At the quantum level particles are popping into existence all the time from nothing. Particles colide, annihilate each other and you are left with nothing
questfortruth
Well-Known Member
Not from nothing, but from spacetime continuum.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Did you really just lead this OP with a clip from Hovind jr?
ow my
This is a new low. Even for you.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
We live in what physics calls space-time. Mathematically this space-time where the concepts of space and time are connected, and are limited by the speed of light.
Theoretically, if space and time were not connected, as space-time, but space and time could act independently of each other, we would get a totally different universe, where the known things of space-time would not exist. This is just a simple mathematical extrapolation, starting with an accepted premise.
If you could move in space without the constraint of time, you would be omnipresent, like a classical attribute of God. If you could move in time, without the constraint of space, you would know the history of the entire universe, simultaneously. This is also a classical attribute of God; omniscience. The classic thinking of God as infinite was based on space and time not connected. Connected space-time was a subset that was designed for mortals.
If space and time were not connected and if time and space could act independently of each other, mass and energy would not exist in that realm. Photons have wavelength and frequency; space and time attributes, respectively. These are always in proportion to the speed of light; space-time. This constraint for frequency and wavelength; connected, does not apply If space and time are not connected. Energy cannot exist as we know it in a realm where space and time are independent.
Mass cannot travel at the speed of light, based on Einstein's theory of Special Relativity. Therefore, if space and time were not connected, and one could violate the speed of light and therefore mass would not be able to exist. General Relativity which defines inertial space-time references is based on mass. Mass acts as the anchor for all inertial space-time references in our universe. These do exist where space and time are not connected.
The bias of physics traditions conceptually assumes space-time always existed, therefore mass and energy have always been here. But that is due a poor premise, caused by atheism not allowing the math implicit of the classical attributes of God; omnipresent and omniscience or disconnected space and time. All religion is bad and so even if it helps, it needs to be suppressed.
An interesting affect of disconnected space and time is connected to the human brain. The frontal lobe is a water, organic and mineral material matrix based on space-time; bio-physical-chemisty. This neural matrix allows information output, called our imagination, that can follow some of the laws of space and time not being connected.
We can imagine things that are not possible in space-time, such as a wet spaghetti bridge across the Grand Canyon. This bridge can never be built, since ti cannot occur in space-time, due to considerations connected to space-time. However, this type of information can be generated by the frontal lobe via imagination. My guess is the meeting of space-time; neural matrix, with space and time separated; imagination, is part of our transcendent consciousness. Self awareness is often subjective, meaning it can be exaggerated and outside space-time which has practical limits.
Part of transcendent is innovation. All innovation begins in the imagination. Before it becomes tangible in space-time and it is only supported by the imagination, as an idea; information. No scientist can prove it exists in space-time, which is why innovators always are misunderstood.
The idea needs to shed it separated space and time aspects, that allow the innovator to see the future, until only the base space-time aspect remain; tangible. This can be seen by science, since science only accepts the limits of reality that science expects based on space-time always connected. Things of consciousness and the human mind is the last frontier in science, since it opens things very wide.
Physics already has concepts that suggests that space and time are not always connected, such as a worm hole, where matter can move across the universe faster than what appears to be the speed of light; warp speed. This is based on distance potential with minimal time potential or moving in distance without the constraint of time.
When a hydrogen atom or any atom gives off a photon as it lowers energy level we have finite velocity situation, partially accelerating to the speed of light on zero time; distance potential. Probability and statistics, in its own crude way, is trying to approximate the interface between space-time and separates space and time; addresses things outside space-time added to space-time; whims of the gods. But this can all be done with reason and two sets of connected math.
Theoretically, if space and time were not connected, as space-time, but space and time could act independently of each other, we would get a totally different universe, where the known things of space-time would not exist. This is just a simple mathematical extrapolation, starting with an accepted premise.
If you could move in space without the constraint of time, you would be omnipresent, like a classical attribute of God. If you could move in time, without the constraint of space, you would know the history of the entire universe, simultaneously. This is also a classical attribute of God; omniscience. The classic thinking of God as infinite was based on space and time not connected. Connected space-time was a subset that was designed for mortals.
If space and time were not connected and if time and space could act independently of each other, mass and energy would not exist in that realm. Photons have wavelength and frequency; space and time attributes, respectively. These are always in proportion to the speed of light; space-time. This constraint for frequency and wavelength; connected, does not apply If space and time are not connected. Energy cannot exist as we know it in a realm where space and time are independent.
Mass cannot travel at the speed of light, based on Einstein's theory of Special Relativity. Therefore, if space and time were not connected, and one could violate the speed of light and therefore mass would not be able to exist. General Relativity which defines inertial space-time references is based on mass. Mass acts as the anchor for all inertial space-time references in our universe. These do exist where space and time are not connected.
The bias of physics traditions conceptually assumes space-time always existed, therefore mass and energy have always been here. But that is due a poor premise, caused by atheism not allowing the math implicit of the classical attributes of God; omnipresent and omniscience or disconnected space and time. All religion is bad and so even if it helps, it needs to be suppressed.
An interesting affect of disconnected space and time is connected to the human brain. The frontal lobe is a water, organic and mineral material matrix based on space-time; bio-physical-chemisty. This neural matrix allows information output, called our imagination, that can follow some of the laws of space and time not being connected.
We can imagine things that are not possible in space-time, such as a wet spaghetti bridge across the Grand Canyon. This bridge can never be built, since ti cannot occur in space-time, due to considerations connected to space-time. However, this type of information can be generated by the frontal lobe via imagination. My guess is the meeting of space-time; neural matrix, with space and time separated; imagination, is part of our transcendent consciousness. Self awareness is often subjective, meaning it can be exaggerated and outside space-time which has practical limits.
Part of transcendent is innovation. All innovation begins in the imagination. Before it becomes tangible in space-time and it is only supported by the imagination, as an idea; information. No scientist can prove it exists in space-time, which is why innovators always are misunderstood.
The idea needs to shed it separated space and time aspects, that allow the innovator to see the future, until only the base space-time aspect remain; tangible. This can be seen by science, since science only accepts the limits of reality that science expects based on space-time always connected. Things of consciousness and the human mind is the last frontier in science, since it opens things very wide.
Physics already has concepts that suggests that space and time are not always connected, such as a worm hole, where matter can move across the universe faster than what appears to be the speed of light; warp speed. This is based on distance potential with minimal time potential or moving in distance without the constraint of time.
When a hydrogen atom or any atom gives off a photon as it lowers energy level we have finite velocity situation, partially accelerating to the speed of light on zero time; distance potential. Probability and statistics, in its own crude way, is trying to approximate the interface between space-time and separates space and time; addresses things outside space-time added to space-time; whims of the gods. But this can all be done with reason and two sets of connected math.
This is not the 'absolute nothing of philosophy and apologetics, which is the assumption of the math model proposed in this thread for which there is no evidence that this nothing ever existed. The failure of the math hypothesis is that it requires the assumption that 'absolute nothingness' existed in the past.
Quantum nothing is not in reality nothing. It can be measured and quantified a 'Quantum something.'Quantum level particles pop into existed from the 'Quantum world' at zero point gravity.
Physicists Just Measured Quantum 'Nothingness' at Room Temperature
"Physicists have measured the sound of 'nothingness' at room temperature - an important step in our future ability to listen in to the Universe.
You can think of it a little like this - we've now been able to measure the way some of the ubiquitous 'background noise' of space interacts with our equipment, which will hopefully help us tune it out going forward.
After all, the entire Universe is crackling with the static of quantum physics, and in order to be able to pick up the faint echoes of distant astronomical giants - such as the gravitational waves rippling off a black hole merger, for example - we need to be able to tune out the quantum static.
But let's take a step back. What exactly does it mean to measure the sound of 'nothingness'?
By now most of us know that there's nothing empty about the vacuum - it's actually filled with quantum fluctuations. We can't 'hear' these fluctuations, but for the sensitive equipment scientists use to measure the minute distortions of space-time, they can create subtle effects that can be deafening.
This experiment looked at a phenomenon called quantum radiation pressure, which arises when particles interact with detectors such as LIGO - the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory in the US, responsible for confirming the existence of gravitational waves a little over three years ago.
This quantum radiation pressure becomes a type of 'noise' that can interfere with results. But, like other quantum phenomena, we would usually need to study it at ultra-cold temperatures in order to keep the particles still and figure out what's going on."
Therefore everything comes from something.
Now let me guess. God is an exception, right?
Ciao
- viole
Philosophy has nothing to do with it.
There is a lot of quantum something around the quantum nothing
What is a quantum fluctuation? Could it possibly be the disturbance caused by participating popping into and out of existence?
And it seems to me that the apologetics flooded your post, we are talking vacuum bubbles, not gravitational waves
. . . . because this is an apologetic attempt at a math proof for the beginning of our physical existence by @quest for truth it is a philosophical/theological attempt to proof the beginning of our physical existence from absolute nothing. This would be the basis of the apologetic argument that Creation was from 'absolute nothing,' therefore God must exist,
A scientific argument was not proposed to support the 'beginning of our physical existence' from Quantum nothing.' .
There is absolutely no evidence that our physical existence had an absolute beginning either from the theological/philosophical belief, nor from the scientific perspective of Quantum nothing.'
Though I demonstrated with a good reference that 'Quantum Nothing' is in reality not nothing by definition.
Last edited:
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Men on earth using earth products sun converted by its mass....know they want to leave earth.
They built rockets like their human man penis as lifes procreator.
They just think.
A machine using metals get propelled through space so nothing of space empty allows it by gas burning.
Men claim light is a gas burning. Natural light in the vacuum only.
The sun blew out attacked our planets all once circling the Sun.
Man of science says I compare other suns with lots of planets exist. I make human choices knowing I need to prove incidences to myself. To save myself from myself.
As gases ignited inside the planet body where metal nuclear sun blast had travelled it blew them off sun cycle. Left a burnt hot space. The planet body was strewn gas moving propelled across space owning suns metals.
The cause historic.
Space the saver of creation.
Mother womb.
Man knew said as energy gets consumed more nothing as space opens. By metals history sun causes. So space eventuates into becoming colder. As burning bodies by heat can suddenly just burn out by heating...why space monitors and subjects the bodies to a slower burn.
Why mother womb saves the sacrificed spirit...gas body.
As rock was held by space void after it was sun blasted....it's asteroids that own like earth metal particles put within is as gas burning. Moving sun coldest mass as wandering star puts the particle mass back into earths vacuum.
As they pass by as the gas burning. Therefore smaller hotter stars cause nuclear blasts entering atmosphere.
Reason earths heavens is like a heart function heating cooling pulse sucks in...vacuum sucks back out.
Man said the created space body functions like a mechanism don't mess with it.
Man said earths gases in space first were only immaculate clear not burning.
Hence one day as rock cools the light in heavens will stop. As only the wandering stars were saviour of life.
As cosmic is the nothing void vacuum ever increasing body versus burning cooling masses. As the nothing over takes everything said theists stories.
As everything discussed isn't relative to human sciences it's relative to cosmic circumstances and not human controlled. Sciences human lesson.
They built rockets like their human man penis as lifes procreator.
They just think.
A machine using metals get propelled through space so nothing of space empty allows it by gas burning.
Men claim light is a gas burning. Natural light in the vacuum only.
The sun blew out attacked our planets all once circling the Sun.
Man of science says I compare other suns with lots of planets exist. I make human choices knowing I need to prove incidences to myself. To save myself from myself.
As gases ignited inside the planet body where metal nuclear sun blast had travelled it blew them off sun cycle. Left a burnt hot space. The planet body was strewn gas moving propelled across space owning suns metals.
The cause historic.
Space the saver of creation.
Mother womb.
Man knew said as energy gets consumed more nothing as space opens. By metals history sun causes. So space eventuates into becoming colder. As burning bodies by heat can suddenly just burn out by heating...why space monitors and subjects the bodies to a slower burn.
Why mother womb saves the sacrificed spirit...gas body.
As rock was held by space void after it was sun blasted....it's asteroids that own like earth metal particles put within is as gas burning. Moving sun coldest mass as wandering star puts the particle mass back into earths vacuum.
As they pass by as the gas burning. Therefore smaller hotter stars cause nuclear blasts entering atmosphere.
Reason earths heavens is like a heart function heating cooling pulse sucks in...vacuum sucks back out.
Man said the created space body functions like a mechanism don't mess with it.
Man said earths gases in space first were only immaculate clear not burning.
Hence one day as rock cools the light in heavens will stop. As only the wandering stars were saviour of life.
As cosmic is the nothing void vacuum ever increasing body versus burning cooling masses. As the nothing over takes everything said theists stories.
As everything discussed isn't relative to human sciences it's relative to cosmic circumstances and not human controlled. Sciences human lesson.
No ot isnt, it's a published mathematical paper. That hypothese based on a proven mathematical formula.
There is absolutely no evidence otherwise either.
Wrong, you gave your opinion, you did not demonstrate anything but using the same argument my reference is also pretty good.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Our perception of quantum things is based on the concept of space-time, where space and time are connected and limited by the speed of light. Space-time is the foundation premise for how we model quantum things.
If we broke down this useful concept of space-time, into a related concept of separated space and time, we get a different foundation premise. In this case, a material universe does not exist. That includes the quantum foundation, that is defined and investigated by science, within the premises of space-time. There is nothingness relative to the universe we assume/model by the concept of space-time.
The beginning of the universe, as defined by the concept of space-time, implies a specific and connected place and time for the point singularity of the BB. Physics says the entire universe was a point size at t=0. The time and that single place were connected by definition.
If time and space could act independently, we would not know the specific location in space and/or in time since in that different premise, one can move in space, without the constraint of time, and/or move in time without the constraint of space. Raw materials can come together from everywhere at any time; web of worm holes, until a focus appears, that we then call space-time.
What we picture as a one step Big Bang; singularity, can occur in many more ways if space and time were acting separately. In this case, photons would not initially exist, since they are based on space time, where the wavelength and frequency are always connected in proportion to the speed of light. This separated space and and time scenario starts before space-time appears and therefore before energy can appear.
Where space and time are separated these two connected components of photons; wavelength and frequency would not be connected, but it would be more like wavelength without frequency and frequency without wavelength. This is not energy, as we know it, until they mesh a specific way as defined by space-time. A meter stick can measure wavelength but not frequency since it is a passive device. A clock can measure frequency but not wavelength, since this is an active device. We have two basic devices that can measure the separate variables. We measure one and calculate the other via the concept of space-time. But each can be measured separately.
God would need to go out of his way; brooding over the deep, to connect time without space and space without time; cross roads, and thereby limit these to space-time, so photons and energy can appear; let there be light. Space-time is a subset of separated space and time.
Our space-time Universe is held together by mass. Mass, via the math of General Relativity defines how space-time adjusts in terms of local space-time reference. Black holes, due to extreme mass density will cause space-time to become very contracted.
If did away with all the mass of the universe, all the diversity of space-time references, seen in the inertial universe, would disappear. General Relativity would not apply, per se. This can be done at the speed of light, since mass is not possible at the speed of light. This is where mass breaks down and space-time homogenizes; primordial atom.
What is interesting, in General Relativity, space-time reference is dependent on mass and distance but not time. If you take x amount of mass, spread over a certain distance or radius; r, you get a specific curving of space-time. It does not matter when this happens in terms of time or history. The final geometry in space is the key. This is not exactly based on space-time, but mass and distance potential, regulating space-time reference, due to the way the math connects it.
On the other hand, the force of gravity due to mass is an acceleration. Acceleration has the units of d/t/t or one part distance and two parts time, which is space-time plus time. The extra distance potential connected to GR and mass geometry, and this extra time potential connected to the acceleration of gravity, adds a secondary layer of pseudo space-time*, which is not exactly the same as the GR space-time reference affect. Ir is connected but different.
This secondary layer can be understood by looking at the sun. The sun's center of gravity will have the most contracted space-time reference due to GR; mass and distance potential.
On the other hand, the center of gravity of the sun, is also where fusion occurs due to extreme heat and pressure. This places causes it matter and energy to exhibit the highest frequencies. Time moves slowest due to GR, but a different time expression also occurs which is the fastest in the core of sun ,relative to all other material transitions; time potential. This first layer; reference, obeys Einstein's GR, but the second layer is more about the behavior of matter/energy phases. Quantum affects are more pronounced in the core, due to the time potential implicit of acceleration due to the gravitational force.
In Special Relativity, which is about velocity; d/t instead of acceleration; d/t/t as is General relativity, only space-time references will change; d/t. Velocity does not have the extra time potential of acceleration for adding material transitions. The body of the astronaut will not compressed or change phase. Our space ship will not change material properties, as it approaches the speed of light, since velocity or d/t does not contain the time potential implicit of acceleration; d/t/t, and gravity. Time potential appears to be the foundation of mass and matter, giving the universe substance, variety and sustainability in time.
Our universe is both space-time and separated time and space, overlapping, with separate space and time the foundation of the universe. Space-time is a special case; primordial atom. Our space-time universe is heading back to where space and time are separated, like a crystal being reabsorbed into solution. Once that happens space-time will no longer apply and based on its assumptions, nothingness will appear. However separated space and time, which has properties different from space-time realty, is busy with informational activity from which a new universe can appear in even a better way; R&D to pilot test to production.
Last edited:
As far as i understand it there is no consensus on whether space-time is quantum. Rather it is seen as a GR phenomenon and to date there is no unified theory of QM and GR.
according to the Banach-Tarsky paradox, you can create something from nothing.
ciao
- viole
questfortruth
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ and satan have nothing in common, nothing mutual.
Even the presence is not mutual. Because the expression ``A and B have nothing in common'' is not possible if one of them is not present. But because they are present, they have absolutely nothing in common.
Nonsense. Me and a unicorn have nothing in common, even if the unicorn is not present.
ciao
- viole
The forven formula only proves the math. Without any evidence of any beginning there is no meaningful conclusion that can be made beyond the math.