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Featured Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Deeje, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    You should have read the upper part of that page, it would have been more useful (and accurate) for us.

    "In the United States, herbs intended for preventive or therapeutic use would be regulated as drugs under federal laws. To evade the law, these products are marketed as "foods" or "dietary supplements" without health claims on their labels. Since these are not regulated as drugs, no legal standards exist for their processing, harvesting, or packaging. In many cases, particularly for products with expensive raw ingredients, contents and potency are not accurately disclosed on the label. Many products marked as herbs contain no useful ingredients, and some even lack the principal ingredient for which people buy them. Surveys have found have found that the ingredients and doses of several products varied considerably from brand to brand.

    A Good Housekeeping Institute analysis of six widely available St. John's wort supplement capsules and four liquid extracts revealed a lack of consistency of the suspected active ingredients, hypericin and pseudohypericin. The study found:
    • A 17-fold difference between the capsules containing the smallest amount of hypericin and those containing the largest amount, based on manufacturer's maximum recommended dosage.
    • A 13-fold difference in pseudohypericin in the capsules.
    • A 7-to-8-fold differential from the highest to the lowest levels of liquid extracts [1].
    .....
    • In 2010, ConsumerLab told me that nearly half of the herbal products they had tested for quality had failed their evaluations. The reason for failure included too little or too little of the main ingredient, potentially dangerous or illegal ingredients, contamination with heavy metals, "spiking" with unexpected ingredients, and misleading or incomplete product information.
    • In 2013, Canadian researchers used DNA barcoding (a type of genetic "fingerprinting") to test 44 products from 12 companies and found that 59% of the products contained ingredients not listed on the label, 30 of the 44 products had ingredient substitutions, and some contained contaminants that posed health risks to users [6]."
    This is why regulation and proper testing are necessary. And this is why people making all these claims of the type you have been making are pushing unsubstantiated opinions about herbal "cures." People pushing herbal cures need to demonstrate the veracity of their claims, as is required of those in the medical/pharmacological field.

    P.S. As I've pointed out to you several times now, scientists isolate the bio active ingredients found in plants because said ingredients work more effectively that way, are more potent that way, and can be more easily measured and controlled that way. In other words, it's safer and more efficient.

    The reason you gave about not be able to patent plants is a fabrication. You can actually patent plants if you want, within certain guidelines:
    General Information About 35 U.S.C. 161 Plant Patents
     
    #1281 SkepticThinker, May 8, 2018
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  2. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    You should go see Penn & Teller's Vegas show. Right before your eyes they debunk stuff like cold readings and show you how deceptive the people who take money for them really are. They're not talking to your dead loved ones, rather they're playing you and picking up the cues you provide for them in your responses and your body language. It's actually quite fascinating.
     
  3. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Did you read the above? Do you remember Peter Popoff? James Randi proved he was a complete fraud. Randi also has a long standing "reward" of $1,000,000 to anyone who can prove any paranormal abilities.

    Twenty years and going. No one has taken the prize. No one.


    In addition to my comment regarding suckers I also mentioned fear, desperation, hope, etc for reasons people want to believe. Wouldn't you want to talk to a long lost departed? Most people would. Wishing doesn't make it real.

    Wouldn't it be great to talk to Washington or Jefferson or Hancock and find out what they were really thinking?
     
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  4. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    double post
     
  5. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    There is a delete option here. How do I know? I too have double posted a time or two (or perhaps more).

    EDIT: Next to the edit "button" there is a button that says delete. It asks for reason for deletion but it does not appear to be required.
     
  7. Thermos aquaticus

    Thermos aquaticus Well-Known Member

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    Penn & Teller are huge fans of Houdini which explains their willingness to show how magic tricks are done but to also debunk mystics, mediums, and the like. Houdini did those very things during his life. In fact, before Houdini died he gave a list of words to his wife. He told her that if any medium were to contact him in the afterlife that he would relay those words through the medium so that his wife would know it was him. No medium has ever uttered those words, even though there is an annual séance where supposedly real mediums attend. Penn & Teller traditionally attend those séances as well with the family secret being passed down from Houdini's wife to their descendants.

    I had a Houdini magic book as a young lad, and this picture has always stuck with me:

    [​IMG]

    Back in the day there were spiritualists or mediums that claimed they could talk to spirits and make them ring a bell under the table. Just so the paying customer didn't feel like they were being cheated they were encouraged to put their feet on top of the medium's shoes to verify that they weren't ringing the bell with their feet. Of course, that was part of the trick. All they did was wear a stiff shoe and slip their foot out.

    Turns out, humans are easy to fool if you know what you are doing.
     
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  8. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Years ago I also picked up a little book on Houdini. One of the things that really struck me, and that I remember to this day:

    Houdini did a trick where he put thread and sewing needles into his mouth and then pulled out the thread with the threaded needles. Some people understood this was a magic trick. Others believed he was so mystical that he could really thread the needles in his mouth - even after being told that anyone could buy the trick in the magic store across the street.
     
  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, there is no prize anymore.

    Yes, it would be awesome to talk to them! (I hope to, in the future.)

    I know it’s what people who've lost loved ones, want to believe, and fraudulent humans play on those hopes.

    But there were no humans pulling tricks here (nor anyone "missing" or "lonely for" Lincoln):

    Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia

    There are many other examples, of respected people who've seen apparitions of those with whom they share no emotional attachment.

    As JW’s, we believe as you do....really, your POV agrees with the Bible: the dead are dead, and ‘know nothing.’ — Ecclesiastes 9:5; see Psalms 146:3-4; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Genesis 3:19.

    But there’s also a fraudulent spirit that promotes the view that the dead are somehow alive, in some undetectable realm.

    Most have no idea, the craftiness he utilizes in misleading humans! Anything he can do to keep people from searching for Jehovah God, and from developing an interest in what the Scriptures really teach... unless it's false teachings, including an immediate afterlife (before the Resurrection).

    Almost every religion has beliefs supporting the view that death is simply a gateway to another life. But that's the Devils influence... he is fostering the viewpoint, of what was actually his lie to Eve: "You positively will not die"!

    One other thing: he is also selective about whom he tries to influence with a belief of life after death. Take people like you and the other atheists here on this forum: why would he reveal himself in some supernatural way to you or them (or Randi)? It might motivate you all to honestly begin searching for God. That's the last thing he wants! He's happy with what you all believe...or lack of.
    And the "fraudulent" mediums (of which I admit there are many), suit his purpose, too. -- Revelation 12:9b.
     
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  10. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Let's see if I understand this. Satan wants people to believe their departed loved ones are in heaven to dissuade people from finding the True Religion where no one has gone to heaven, yet. So, when Satan lied to Eve, he knew that someday JW would come into existence.






    How do you know these things about Satan? Did JW God impart that knowledge to JW Leaders who, in turn, imparted that knowledge to you?
     
  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, apparently you don't get it. I was wanting to show you that we and the Bible share common ground with you about the condition of the dead...but your reply drips with disdain. Why did you exclude those Scriptures in your response?

    Here are two more, to think on: 2 Corinthians 11:14-15.... 'Satan transforms into an angel of light.' (He can do seemingly good things, to mislead.)

    Deuteronomy 18:10-12....(Why does the Bible link "inquiring of the dead" with 'fortunetellers, sorcery and magic', occult themes?)
     
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  12. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Here's how they are perfectly compatible. An omnipotent God can create the Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating and fossil evidence. An omnipotent God could have created the Universe just moments ago with all your fake memories intact and this post is the first real thing you've ever experienced. Science always presumes God is bounded by the laws of physics. From a theist point of view. as long as you have faith in an omnipotent God, then who cares about evolution being science fact. It makes absolutely no difference in God's proving ground for faith.
     
  13. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I like Slayer's interpretation that Satan is an angel of death:

     
  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Check out Hebrews 2:14b...(Sadly, many say "God took my loved one", when the Bible says Satan has the power of death.)
     
  15. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Do you really think God did not know exactly what he was doing when he created Satan. Of course He knew. Same thing with Eve. Do you honestly think God did not know exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with naked woman prancing about? Of course He knew.

    I'm not afraid of Satan. People only take away from you what you let them. So don't let them!

    I'm more afraid of the theocracy taking over the government as described by Bill Cooper in this video (3:30 mark onward):

     
  16. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    • Most Christians, reading the same bible as you, do believe in a heaven.
    • JW believes in a heaven, just not as soon.
    • I do not believe in a heaven.
    So, no, no shared common ground.

    I don't consider the bible to be a reliable source.
    Because bible writers were a superstitious bunch. Just as bible believers are.
     
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  17. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    AKA Last Thursdayism.


    No. The only presumption science makes about gods is that gods do not exist.



    If science was to take gods into consideration then Last Thursdayism is just as much of a real position as any other religious position.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    A very useful belief at times, especially when one has a debt that is more than a week old.



    I would say that it presumes no interference from gods since no evidence for such interference has ever been shown to exist. One could say science gives no support for any gods. But then science neither tries to prove or disprove gods. Certain god claims have been disproved. We know that the Sun is not pulled across the sky by a team of horses pulled in a chariot since we can observe the Sun directly these days. And we know that life evolved and was not created because the evidence so clearly supports evolution. One would have have the lying god, the one that planted the false evidence of Last Thursdayism to believe in creationism. Which would mean that in reality I don't owe Mark $20.00


    Yep, writing off that debt and accepting creationism! Hmm . . . I wonder if that is repeatable behavior on my part. This could be a highly profitable belief. I always did want a Ferrari.
     
  19. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I used to do a lot of reading on this kind of stuff because it totally fascinated me. I probably had the same Houdini book.
    Before she died, my Nana and I actually made a similar arrangement to the one Houdini and his wife made. Our word was "Wowie Doo-doo." (Something she used to say.) And if it turned out she couldn't convey a message to me in word form, she promised that she would grab me by the collar, like she used to do to us kids on a cold day and tell us to zip our coats up. I figured that would be noticeable.

    She's been gone for 7 years now. She hasn't shown up yet to grab my collar, nor did she show up the two times my mother and I visited with a psychic, just for fun. I guess I'll keep waiting. ;)
     
  20. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Sounds made up.
     
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