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Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

gnostic

The Lost One
Again you are mistaken.
"Evidence" is the sum total of what is observed and is instrumental in hypothesis formation and in experiment design.

It can not be substituted for experimental results. It is this very substitution that has created modern "science" that knows everything but can show nothing.
Evidences are detectable, measurable and quantifiable m

Experiments can only be done in a lab and closed environment. The test results of scientific experiments are observable or measurable evidences. And if you can repeat the experiments in so many x-number of time, you verify the first result. Repeating the experiments also ensure that the first test result wasn’t a fluke or error.

That’s how scientists are able to test their hypothesis or theory. But it is only one to test a hypothesis or theory.

The alternative approach is to go out and do field work, by finding evidences, this called field testing.

For instance, astronomers cannot bring a star (eg sun) or planet (eg Mars or Jupiter), to perform experiments and test them. Using a optical telescope or radio telescope is the the only mean that can detect and measure the sun or planets, is not possible in the lab.

Similarly scientists cannot find meteorites inside the lab. In a lab, you cannot create iridium, and you will only find abundant iridium around craters caused by past meteor crashes.

Doing field testings are just as important as doing lab testings, even more so.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
What do I think? I think it's a silly question. God has no physical form. It is his qualities that we reflect, not his shape.

You don't know much about God, do you?

I know so much about God like everyone else, I suspect. Well, probably more than anyone else, since I am a gnostic atheist.

And I don't know you, but if I were God and, as omniscient, I would already know that I would spawn a Son of mine, I would make sure He would not be an ape or look like one. That looks like an excessive ungodly concession to evolution and might confuse people centuries later.

So, you mean His spiritual or moral qualities, whatever spiritual means...?

You mean He made us in His image and then tested us with apples, trees and such?

Was that a quality control procedure? And did the test pass?

Ciao

- viole
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
And kids today are not taught to believe in evolution in a school system that has basically banned one religion and replaced it with another.....how wonderful. By the time they reach university, evolution is so ingrained in their thinking that none of them would even question it......they should. It is full of holes big enough to drive a Mack Truck through them.
Evolution is part of biology, so you would teach biology in biology lectures and biology labs.

Religion isn’t science, or haven’t you understood this by now?

When you learn maths, physics or chemistry, do any of these science subjects teach you about gods, Jesus, miracles, creation, resurrection, reincarnation, heaven or hell, prayers, etc?

No. So why would you expect universities teach religions, scriptures or religious myths in science or science-related courses?

When you do business course or law, or other non-scientific courses, do you expect these courses to teach religion?

No, they would teach them.

When you do apprenticeship or certificates, do you learn plumbing, metalworking, excavation, stone masonry, bricklaying, food preparation or services, etc, or do you learn about gods, miracles, prophecies or prayers?

If you want to learn religion or learn Creation, then you would be studying theology.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I know so much about God like everyone else, I suspect. Well, probably more than anyone else, since I am a gnostic atheist.

Labels...everyone's got 'em. :rolleyes:

Where we obtain our knowledge of God is very important. If you want to know about the Christian God, then go back to the first century. Jesus was born into the Jewish nation and as such he was taught from the Hebrew Scriptures from infancy, obligated by birth to uphold its laws and commandments. But if you check through those Hebrew writings, you will find that the Jews, time and again broke their covenant with their God, requiring him to discipline them, sometimes severely. Why did he do that? Because the liberated descendants of Abraham made a vow to their God to keep his laws. They entered into a legal agreement (covenant) of their own volition to obey the laws given through Moses. The Messiah was going to come through their lineage, so God kept that wayward nation in existence until his part of the covenant was fulfilled. When Jesus made his appearance as the Christ, God gave the "lost sheep" of that nation first option of becoming rulers with him in his kingdom. But when the Jewish leaders conspired to murder him, God abandoned them as his people. They [proved to be incorrigible. The old covenant ended and a new covenant was instituted with a new nation....not a political nation, but a spiritual nation comprised of both Jews and Gentiles...separated from this world in many ways.

If you are a Jew today, you will still be serving the Hebrew God under the impression that Jesus was a fake and that the true Messiah is still on his way.

If you are a Christian, (a member of one of Christendom's many churches) you will be expecting that Jesus is about to return and take you to heaven.

I have come to the conclusion, from a lengthy study of the scriptures, that neither of these scenarios will take place. Expectations inculcated from their interpretation of the scriptures will prove to be false. But it was prophesied to be this way. No surprises for serious Bible students. Knowledge is everything....but it has to be accurate knowledge, not half baked ideas from men.

There can only be one truth, not several versions of it. We are all exposed to the truth in one way or another, but according to that Holy Book, the majority have unknowingly been barking up the wrong tree all of their lives, and when the truth is presented to them, it seems so foreign that they treat it like its a fairytale.
It happened in the first century and it has happened again in our day. If you listen to the wrong people, regardless of how good their explanation might sound, I believe that only God can open a heart to accept his truth. This is why it was prophesied that only a "remnant" of the fleshly Jews would be saved and become disciples of Jesus.....and why Jesus said that only a "few" would be saved out of today's generation of "Christians" in this "time of the end". History is repeating right before our eyes. Few can see it.

And I don't know you, but if I were God and, as omniscient, I would already know that I would spawn a Son of mine, I would make sure He would not be an ape or look like one. That looks like an excessive ungodly concession to evolution and might confuse people centuries later.

You only have the word of men in relatively recent times who assume that apes evolved into humans. I challenge any scientists to prove that this ever happened. They take a bunch of bones and then tell the bones what to say.....seriously, you can believe them if you like. Humans are unique and no scientists can tell you when or how an ape became a human. The gulf between man and apes is unbridgeable.

His Qualities? You mean He made us in His image and then tested us with apples, trees and such?

A flippant approach will not get you the answers you seek.
The first humans were endowed with God's attributes, which are not really seen in the animal kingdom. You can tell animals not to do something but unless you train them with something unpleasant, (like scolding or some kind of punishment) they will likely ignore you.

Words are like that to some humans too, but we have intellect and that unique faculty of imagination. When we hear words we also see mental pictures and can contemplate repercussions and consequences for our actions. Disobedience then is inexcusable. Consequences can be expected and anticipated. Much like a criminal on the run....he knows what's coming.

The fruit of one tree was a simple test that posed no hardship or deprivation of any kind....it represented God's sovereign right to set reasonable limits for his appointed caretakers and to allow them to understand that certain things were his property. Respect for their Creator should have been enough, but the penalty of death reinforced how serious this issue really was. All would have been fine, but someone (a rebel spirit intent on gaining worship for himself) planted a seed of doubt and not only lied about the penalty but accused the Creator of being a lousy parent in holding back something that was beneficial for his children. He made that one tree into something it never was. An issue of sovereignty. By our actions, we choose who our sovereign is.

Was that a quality control procedure? And did the test pass?

It was a quality control issue in a way....and they failed the test....free will cannot be free if there is no choice.
Both ate the fruit of their own free will. but for entirely different reasons. The devil used the woman to get to the man, dividing his loyalties and as a result, severing their relationship with God. Now they would worship the pretender in all sorts of ways as he introduced multiple forms of false worship to ensure that the human race would serve his interests and ignore that lousy father. o_O

Was the devil going to be able to get all humans to leave God? He was allowed to try, and in the process, humans would choose from their own hearts who was the true God. In the book of Job we see this test in a very intense form, but faith triumphed and Job is in the Bible as the supreme example of a man with outstanding faith, withstanding the devil's multi-level assault on him.

We are all like Job because the devil uses the same accusation on all of us. We can cave in and "curse God" or we can endure the trials with faith that there is a reason for our suffering. Job's reward for his faith will follow him on into the new world. So will ours.

This is how the Bible explains the scenario according to my years of study.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Labels...everyone's got 'em. :rolleyes:

Where we obtain our knowledge of God is very important.

My Muslim friend agrees with you.

You only have the word of men in relatively recent times who assume that apes evolved into humans. I challenge any scientists to prove that this ever happened. They take a bunch of bones and then tell the bones what to say.....seriously, you can believe them if you like. Humans are unique and no scientists can tell you when or how an ape became a human. The gulf between man and apes is unbridgeable.

Word of men? I think even a child would recognize that we are vastly more similar to a gorilla than to a pig, or to any other animal, plant, with the possible exception of chimps.

My question to you is: what is so special about apes to convince God to make the pinnacle of His creation, and His own kid, looking like them?

I ask because I would have preferred to have wings like a butterfly, eyes like an eagle and so many arms like a spider.

It was a quality control issue in a way....and they failed the test....free will cannot be free if there is no choice.

Why is that? Why is that so simple to get attracted by that apple? And I do not buy the theory: no free choice = no freedom.

I make you an example. If instead of an apple, there was a disgusting piece of pig's excrement hanging from that tree, do you think A&E would have sinned?

My point is, we seem to have natural barriers against some stuff, anyway. For instance, you, Satan, or whomever, will have problems to induce me to eat that piece of pig's excrement.

Does that barrier impinge on my freedom to eat pig's crap? Yeah, probably, but that does not automatically make me feel like a robot unable to freely choose between French gourmet and swine leftovers.

So, why not inducing something similar for forbidden apples and stuff? Especially If God is, for some reason, so obsessed with such things.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Evolution is part of biology, so you would teach biology in biology lectures and biology labs.

Religion isn’t science, or haven’t you understood this by now?

I believe that this is your biggest barrier to gaining the truth. You separate the Creator from his creation.....science taught you to do that. But the truth is, Jehovah is the first and greatest scientist in existence. Without creation, scientists would not be here and have nothing to study. Do you understand this?

When you learn maths, physics or chemistry, do any of these science subjects teach you about gods, Jesus, miracles, creation, resurrection, reincarnation, heaven or hell, prayers, etc?

No. So why would you expect universities teach religions, scriptures or religious myths in science or science-related courses?

When did I say that I ever expected universities to teach anything about religion ? They will learn only what the current education system forces on their students. It isn't based on fact, but on pure speculation....but you will never hear them admit it. It is hidden in the language they use, so you will think its all backed up with evidence. The evidence will say whatever interpretation they put on it. Why are people so gullible? Isn't it because it gives them a seemingly legitimate excuse to abandon a God that they may have to account to?

You can treat the miraculous happenings in the Bible as myth (made up by men) or you can see them as the product of forces that scientist have no instruments to measure. There is so much that science has no way of knowing and yet they speak as if they know it all....including what they think is impossible. But take your mind back to the turn of the 18th century and if you asked the people back then about hand held devices that can stream information and images over invisible waves in the air....or running machinery on solar power with panels on your roof. Or about jet planes that can transport people in hours, what would have taken weeks in the transport systems back then? Would that not have seemed miraculous to them?

When you do business course or law, or other non-scientific courses, do you expect these courses to teach religion?

No, they would teach them.

Again you are separating knowledge from the most experienced teacher in existence. If we did not have the brain function given to us by the Creator, we would just be like unreasoning animals....here for a brief lifetime and then going back to the dust without accomplishing anything other then what they were programmed for...survival and reproduction. We are so much more than that...aren't we?

When you do apprenticeship or certificates, do you learn plumbing, metalworking, excavation, stone masonry, bricklaying, food preparation or services, etc, or do you learn about gods, miracles, prophecies or prayers?

Appreciate that without the Creator endowing us with mental and physical abilities, we would not be doing any of those things. Animals do not worship....only humans do that....and until relatively recent times, most humans would express their innate spirituality in whatever expression was common to their kin. Only when men decided that they were too intelligent for God, did they abandon worship of him in favor of the worship of each other. The gods of this world are the men of science dictating to gullible people what they think...NOT what they know. Their assumptions are designed to destroy all connection to any power that they cannot explain...especially if it is called "God". Ridicule and derision are used as reinforcement.

Science cannot explain miracles or prophesies or anything they consider "supernatural" for the simple reason that they have placed them in the realm of the impossible. Impossible for humans perhaps, but nothing is impossible for the one who created matter and designed the human brain. He endowed us with his creativity.

Only humans have the ability to plan activities, based on a concept of past, present and future. Animals live in the moment. Any preparation for future activities is not conscious, but programmed instinct....another wonderful endowment from the Creator to ensure their survival. We are not animals.

If you want to learn religion or learn Creation, then you would be studying theology.

Theology is the study of religion....God did not create religion...man did. To me science is revealing the knowledge and ability of the Intelligent Designer that believers know exists, because we do not see nature apart from its Creator. Natural Science simply reinforces what an incredible Being the Creator is. I am sorry if you lost sight of him in all the rhetoric. He never went away from you...you went away from him. He is still there waiting for appreciative hearts to search for him. (Acts 17:24-28) This is my firm belief.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
My Muslim friend agrees with you.

Everyone is a label wearer. The only one who reads labels is man. According to God there are only two.
"True worship" and "False Worship". Everyone fits into one or the other of those categories....like "sheep" and "goats"...."wheat" and "weeds". God knows which is which, but oftentimes we don't. Labels mean nothing.

Word of men? I think even a child would recognize that we are vastly more similar to a gorilla than to a pig, or to any other animal, plant, with the possible exception of chimps.

My question to you is: what is so special about apes to convince God to make the pinnacle of His creation, and His own kid, looking like them?

I ask because I would have preferred to have wings like a butterfly, eyes like an eagle and so many arms like a spider.

I don't know about you, but when I visit my local zoo I am especially fascinated by the monkeys and apes. The fascination comes from the fact that they resemble us physically in a lot of ways and in some behaviors, yet they are poles apart from us in many other ways.

God created all things out of the same raw materials. Many creatures are shaped around the same basic, bony framework. Four legged creatures for example, display astonishing variety, and yet not many of them are related biologically. Each has its own DNA to make sure that reproduction stays within their "kind". If that were not the case then we would have a mish-mash of weird looking creatures that would be impossible to categorize or even name. The order in creation is not accidental.

Why is that? Why is that so simple to get attracted by that apple? And I do not buy the theory: no free choice = no freedom.

I make you an example. If instead of an apple, there was a disgusting piece of pig's excrement hanging from that tree, do you think A&E would have sinned?

My point is, we seem to have natural barriers against some stuff, anyway. For instance, you, Satan, or whomever, will have problems to induce me to eat that piece of pig's excrement.

Does that barrier impinge on my freedom to eat pig's crap? Yeah, probably, but that does not automatically make me feel like a robot unable to freely choose between French gourmet and swine leftovers.

So, why not inducing something similar for forbidden apples and stuff? Especially If God is, for some reason, so obsessed with such things.

If there was no genuine temptation, then there would be no test. If the fruit (whatever it was) was not appealing (as the woman came to see it) then she would not have been tempted. But without someone to plant seeds of doubt, there was no real temptation in the first place. One tree in the garden belonged to God...he did not place a prohibition on any other.

If you take the temptation the devil used on Jesus as an example, he only offered him things that were a genuine temptation.
Jesus was hungry after a long fast, so he told him to turn the stones into loaves of bread. Not once was God's miraculous power used selfishly for the benefit of the possessor of that power. Jesus was having none of that so the devil dipped out.

The devil then told him that all the Kingdoms of the world could be his if he would do one act of worship to him. Again, Jesus didn't bite. All those kingdom would be his in the future and he would wait on his God to determine when.

The last one was an appeal to pride. He told Jesus to throw himself off the battlement of the temple so that the angels would prevent anything bad happening to him. He told the devil that he would never put God to that kind of test.....a bit like the snake handlers in some fanatical cults expecting the serpents not to bite them. Many have died.

The Bible is not a book to read superficially. Taken at face value it can seem comical, but dig deeper and gems come to the surface that were not visible without a bit of digging....that is why the truth of the Bible is likened to buried treasure.....you don't find it lying around on the surface. The treasure is worth digging for.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Appreciate that without the Creator endowing us with mental and physical abilities, we would not be doing any of those things. Animals do not worship....only humans do that....and until relatively recent times, most humans would express their innate spirituality in whatever expression was common to their kin. Only when men decided that they were too intelligent for God, did they abandon worship of him in favor of the worship of each other. The gods of this world are the men of science dictating to gullible people what they think...NOT what they know. Their assumptions are designed to destroy all connection to any power that they cannot explain...especially if it is called "God". Ridicule and derision are used as reinforcement.
God didn’t teach man how to cook, hunt, farm, fish, build, etc.

The bible also don’t teach anyone how to cook, hunt, farm, fish, build, etc.

And yet you want to give credit to imaginary god who cannot do anything or a useless book that can’t explain how to survive in the real world?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And I agree with that, that Satan has nothing to do with Lucifer.

But Satan is only seen as the devil, only in the New Testament, but he is never the Devil in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament only depicted Satan as God’s agent (eg Job), doing god bidding.

How is he doing God's bidding? He is a free willed spirit who rebelled against his Creator in an attempt to gain worship from himself.

He is "the adversary" in the OT...but I find no evidence that he is 'doing God's bidding' at all.

Job 1:6..."Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them."
Iyov - Job - Chapter 1

What is an "adversary"?

"a person, group, or force that opposes or attacks; opponent; enemy; foe.
2.
a person, group, etc., that is an opponent in a contest; contestant.
3.
the Adversary, the devil; Satan."

the definition of adversary

Using that as a basis for further study, we see satan in this adversarial role....that of an enemy.....a foe....an opposer. It is the very meaning of his name.

And Revelation isn’t at all reliable source, because there are too much metaphors, with symbolic meanings, therefore you cannot take anything literally in Revelation.

Revelation has been a mystery since it was written at the end of the first century, but in "the time of the end" God was going to provide abundant knowledge to the people who accepted the spiritual cleansing he provided at this time. (Daniel 12:4)These would be given "insight" into many things and since the Revelation is about the time we are living in, NOW is the time we need to understand its symbolisms.

If the OT Satan is evil, then so is God, since in the OT, Satan is only doing God’s bidding, and being the boss, god is responsible for any action of Satan.

Is satan seen as doing God's bidding....or is God responding to what satan is doing? Read the account again in Job 1 & 2. The question God asks is important to our understanding...

"Now the Lord said to the Adversary, "Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him on earth, a sincere and upright man, God-fearing and shunning evil."

9 And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing?

10 Haven't You made a hedge around him, his household, and all that he has on all sides? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land.


11 But now, stretch forth Your hand and touch all that he has, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?"
(Job 1:8-11 Tanach Online)

Why did God ask that question? Wasn't it because he had already detected satan's intention to target this faithful man in some awful way? He accuses him of serving God only for selfish reasons, but if satan was allowed to take all his valuable things away (including his 10 children) satan inferred that Job would soon blame God and curse him.

In order to prove that Job's integrity came from his heart and not his material assets, or even his children....

"Now the Lord said to the Adversary, "Behold, all that he has is in your hands; only upon him do not stretch forth your hand." Now the Adversary left the presence of the Lord."
(verse 12)

He was permitted to take all that Job had in the world that he valued....but he was not to touch the man himself.
Why did God allow such an awful test? Because he knew Job's heart and he knew that as devastating as it was, he would endure it and keep his faith. He did not let his God down.

Yet, not content that the devil had caused the man enough grief, the account continues in chapter 2....

"And the Lord said to the Adversary, "Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a sincere and upright man, God-fearing and shunning evil, and he still maintains his sincerity. Yet you enticed Me against him."

4 Now the Adversary replied to the Lord and said, "Skin for skin, and whatever a person has he will give for his life.

5 But, stretch forth Your hand now and touch his bones and his flesh, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?"


6 And the Lord said to the Adversary, "Here he is in your hands, but preserve his life." (Job 2:3-6)

Do you see that in each test, satan tells God to afflict the man, but each time he allows the devil to do what he cannot...that is to bring calamity upon a blameless and innocent man.....the devil has no compunction about doing that, so we know that our trials are never from God. (James 1:13)

Job was taken to within an inch of his life, but still he did not let his God down. Notice also that the devil said "whatever a person has he will give for his life." Job in his trials was representing the human race...he was implying that any human would give up God if it meant his life....that no one could love God that much. Job proved that the devil was wrong....very, very wrong. But do we?

Don’t get me wrong, I understand very well Satan is the Devil in the New Testament, but the Old Testament isn’t a Christian scriptures, and New Testament isn’t a Hebrew scriptures, so they should be both treated as such - two different religions.

I do not see two different religions. I see the religion that Jesus, as a devout Jew, promoted. It wasn't the religion that they Pharisees taught...it was the truth that all of Jesus' followers would come to know and practice, as taught by him. Since the Jews, through their continued disobedience, were not considered worthy of receiving the New Covenant, God chose a new nation to be his people. (Acts 15:14) These would qualify to be taken to heaven to rule with Jesus. And these heavenly rulers would have earthly subjects. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4)

Everything in the Bible fits into its primary theme..."the Kingdom of God" and how we qualify to be citizens in it....and what it will ultimately accomplish for mankind now, and in the future. That is the "good news".
 

gnostic

The Lost One
When did I say that I ever expected universities to teach anything about religion ? They will learn only what the current education system forces on their students. It isn't based on fact, but on pure speculation....but you will never hear them admit it. It is hidden in the language they use, so you will think its all backed up with evidence. The evidence will say whatever interpretation they put on it. Why are people so gullible? Isn't it because it gives them a seemingly legitimate excuse to abandon a God that they may have to account to?
Spoken like someone who has never study in university before.

Jealous much?

When a person choose a particular field in his career, the universities will provide the necessarily education and teach the fundamentals. The rest are taught at the workplaces, because the company, organisation and business may have tools, devices or whatever that the universities may not have.

But anyway, if a person chooses a certain career, how is the education forced upon him or her.

You are being ignorant and naive if you can get a job withou the necessary education and training.

Do you think JW or your bible can provide the necessary education and training to work as accountants, lawyers, doctors, physicists, etc?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
God didn’t teach man how to cook, hunt, farm, fish, build, etc.

The bible also don’t teach anyone how to cook, hunt, farm, fish, build, etc.

And yet you want to give credit to imaginary god who cannot do anything or a useless book that can’t explain how to survive in the real world?

Now this is pure defensiveness, surely. What sort of argument is that?

God endowed humans with cognitive and physical capabilities that animals do not have.

Hunting is something that both humans and animals had to learn to do after the flood. Before that, all animals and humans were vegetarians, except of course, the carrion creatures and bacteria who were designed to keep the earth clean and uncontaminated, recycling waste and adding nutrients to the soil.

Fishing and building were also programmed in many creatures as they established their food sources and lived in their habitats, provided for them long before they arrived. Termites are one of the most amazing construction engineers in existence.....yet no one taught them to build their structures...or did they?

Who taught birds to build their nests...each with their own design? The babies were not around when the parents were preparing for their arrival.

Farming is seen in the insect world and it is not surprising that humans would observe nature and copy what its older creatures did by nature. Amazing animal farmers that grow their own food

But cooking.....that appears to be a purely human activity. We alone have an infinite variety of food that we can prepare in a multitude of ways. It enhances our quality of life to cook different foods and share them with family and friends. It isn't just a survival activity.....it is a social activity for us.

Worship is also an exclusively human activity. Since man first walked the earth, he has felt the need to acknowledge his Creator and offer him thanks for his many provisions. Animals do not do this.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Spoken like someone who has never study in university before.

Jealous much?

You are exhibiting defensiveness again. It sounds childish.

Jealous? Are you serious? We have many university educated people in our ranks....doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers and others. You think they don't have experience with what goes on in universities? You think that their university education prevented them from finding God? Actually a great many of them sacrificed lucrative careers because they found a better purpose in life as ministers of God.

You speak like someone who has never really had a relationship with God. It is one thing to know about God, but another thing entirely to "know" God on a personal level.

When a person choose a particular field in his career, the universities will provide the necessarily education and teach the fundamentals. The rest are taught at the workplaces, because the company, organisation and business may have tools, devices or whatever that the universities may not have.

But anyway, if a person chooses a certain career, how is the education forced upon him or her.

I never said any of the fields of education force anything on anyone. Law, Accountancy, Business Management, IT.....none of these require any 'beliefs' one way or another....most people just want a job that pays well.
I said that the education system forces 'evolution' on those who enter the various fields of science. Can you name me a branch of science where it is unnecessary to believe in evolution? Do you understand that belief is required when there is no proof for what you are asserting? If evolution was a proven fact, there would be no room for debate.

You are being ignorant and naive if you can get a job without the necessary education and training.

I never said that...you are shooting down a strawman again. Education is vital for all humans...we are not born educated....we learn everything we know from someone or something. Since we all need to put food on the table, we have to find employment that pays the bills. You will find JW's in many different lines of employment...most did not need a university education.

Do you think JW or your bible can provide the necessary education and training to work as accountants, lawyers, doctors, physicists, etc?

It might surprise you to know that JW's are sought out by employers because of their honesty. Many keep their jobs when there is redundancy, because they are honest and reliable employees. In today's world, that is highly valued. Employee theft costs all of us.

We just do not see the need for higher education in a world that is condemned. Would I sit in classes for these various fields of endeavor if I was offered them on the Titanic? If you didn't know that the Titanic was going to sink because you had been convinced that it was unsinkable, then you might even upgrade to a better cabin and enjoy all the trappings that go with it.....but at the end of the day, will it give you a place in the lifeboats? On the Titanic, there weren't enough lifeboats for everyone. And those who stayed on the ship had two options...stay and go down with it...or dive into the icy water and freeze to death.

We believe that we have a much more important job to do right now. We need to earn a living like everyone else, but we don't need to earn a lifestyle by sacrificing the more important things in life...like time with our family and friends....and more importantly our worship and carrying out the command of our Leader Jesus Christ to "preach the good news of the Kingdom" to all who will listen. (Matthew 24:14) He has already told us that most people will take no notice (Matthew 24:37-39)....and that is the sad reality...but we will continue to sound the warning for as long as there is time.....but we believe that it is fast running out.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
If there was no genuine temptation, then there would be no test. If the fruit (whatever it was) was not appealing (as the woman came to see it) then she would not have been tempted. But without someone to plant seeds of doubt, there was no real temptation in the first place. One tree in the garden belonged to God...he did not place a prohibition on any other.

So, that had nothing to do with freedom. It was just a setup. For a test.

A bit like engineers testing their product to be sure they did not make mistakes with the design and such. Right?

If you take the temptation the devil used on Jesus as an example, he only offered him things that were a genuine temptation.
Jesus was hungry after a long fast, so he told him to turn the stones into loaves of bread. Not once was God's miraculous power used selfishly for the benefit of the possessor of that power. Jesus was having none of that so the devil dipped out.

The devil is silly. He really is. It is mind boggling that people could have so much consideration and fear for an idiot of that caliber.

In Jesus position I would also have refused (you know, to give a good example of heroism), but only after having miracolously extinguished my hunger by other means nobody could see. It just takes a simple materialization of a burger inside the stomach, possibly already magically chewed.

Probably He did the same with all those torments He allegedely suffered. Some miraculous switching off of pain, while still showing sufferance to the outer world (because of being a good role model for salvation and stuff). I would have if I had that power. Win-Win situation.

The devil then told him that all the Kingdoms of the world could be his if he would do one act of worship to him. Again, Jesus didn't bite. All those kingdom would be his in the future and he would wait on his God to determine when.

Same thing. The devil is really stupid. It offers things that were already owned, or soon to be owned. It is like offering a kingdom to the son of king. Worse, like offering a little city to the son of the king of the whole nation.

The last one was an appeal to pride. He told Jesus to throw himself off the battlement of the temple so that the angels would prevent anything bad happening to him. He told the devil that he would never put God to that kind of test.....a bit like the snake handlers in some fanatical cults expecting the serpents not to bite them. Many have died.

It seems the devil had no clue who he was talking to. It would not make such silly propositions otherwise. It is actually surprising Jesus said not LOL-ed at him.

The Bible is not a book to read superficially. Taken at face value it can seem comical, but dig deeper and gems come to the surface that were not visible without a bit of digging....that is why the truth of the Bible is likened to buried treasure.....you don't find it lying around on the surface. The treasure is worth digging for.

I don't agree that the Bible seems comical.

Ciao

- viole
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
God didn’t teach man how to cook, hunt, farm, fish, build, etc.

The bible also don’t teach anyone how to cook, hunt, farm, fish, build, etc.

And yet you want to give credit to imaginary god who cannot do anything or a useless book that can’t explain how to survive in the real world?

...And you want to give credit to a science that didn't exist yet...

One of these positions is the height of illogic.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Now this is pure defensiveness, surely. What sort of argument is that?

God endowed humans with cognitive and physical capabilities that animals do not have.

Hunting is something that both humans and animals had to learn to do after the flood. Before that, all animals and humans were vegetarians, except of course, the carrion creatures and bacteria who were designed to keep the earth clean and uncontaminated, recycling waste and adding nutrients to the soil.

Fishing and building were also programmed in many creatures as they established their food sources and lived in their habitats, provided for them long before they arrived. Termites are one of the most amazing construction engineers in existence.....yet no one taught them to build their structures...or did they?

Who taught birds to build their nests...each with their own design? The babies were not around when the parents were preparing for their arrival.

Farming is seen in the insect world and it is not surprising that humans would observe nature and copy what its older creatures did by nature. Amazing animal farmers that grow their own food

But cooking.....that appears to be a purely human activity. We alone have an infinite variety of food that we can prepare in a multitude of ways. It enhances our quality of life to cook different foods and share them with family and friends. It isn't just a survival activity.....it is a social activity for us.

Worship is also an exclusively human activity. Since man first walked the earth, he has felt the need to acknowledge his Creator and offer him thanks for his many provisions. Animals do not do this.

You were scoffing off science and university, and you claimed how people are forced to learn science and not religion.

Now, you are talking about animals, changing the subjects, moving the goalpost.

What do these animals having to do with university and forced to study non-religious subjects?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
And you want to give credit to a science that didn't exist yet...

One of these positions is the height of illogic.
Yes, the illogic is all yours.

There were no science before 2000 BCE. You have no evidences to support your logic of Ancient Science.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Yes, the illogic is all yours.

There were no science before 2000 BCE. You have no evidences to support your logic of Ancient Science.

So...

...What experiments were used to invent hunting etc?

Do you read what you write?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So...

...What experiments were used to invent hunting etc?

Do you read what you write?
What on Earth are you talking about?

I said nothing about the invention of hunting. It is apparently you who cannot read.

Do all creationists rely on straw man?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You were scoffing off science and university, and you claimed how people are forced to learn science and not religion.

Now, you are talking about animals, changing the subjects, moving the goalpost.

What do these animals having to do with university and forced to study non-religious subjects?

Gnostic, your replies are worrying me. Everything I said was in reply to something you said. I have moved no goalposts, or changed any subjects, but simply answered things YOU raised in your posts. Go back and read them.

The point about things being forced on students of science in any public education system, is that the unprovable theory of evolution is taught as if it were established and substantiated fact. Kids are force fed this 'doctrine' even though it cannot be proven. So tell me why you think that science has the high ground in this issue? Should suggestions backed up by supposition actually replace true facts in education? We know that some early historians fiddled with history to paint their own nation in a better light.....and as the truth comes to light in later times, history needs to be rewritten so that lies are exposed and truth can be taught. Science is no different.
 
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