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Featured Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Deeje, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How old did you say you were? o_O

    Life is tough on a lot of people. You want to compare notes sometime? :rolleyes:

    What you call "punishment" is simply the consequences of humans deciding for themselves what path to take without considering anyone else. It's like being in a war zone and your suffering or death being treated as "collateral damage". Is that what you think you are to God?

    Actually it's not my job at all. My job is to pass on the message....what you do with it has nothing to do with me. It then becomes an issue between you and your Maker. Spiritual reasoning is done with the heart, not just the head. We can talk ourselves into, and out of anything if we have a particular mindset.

    It's the mindset that can become the barrier to many wonderful experiences. :(

    If you have never experienced God in your life, then there is probably a reason. Attitude is everything. ;)

    You clearly have no idea what you are missing....has cynicism replaced hope for people like you? Where will your non-belief take you? And do you really want to go there?
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Im·manʹu·el means "With Us Is God". Jesus did indeed fulfill Isaiah's prophesy as he was born of a maiden and God was with his people through their Messiah. But he is not the only" Immanuel".

    "In view of the circumstances under which the prophecy was given, Bible commentators have looked for an “Immanuel” in Isaiah’s day, one who fittingly served then as a sign that ‘God was with them.’ In that eighth century B.C.E., Pekah and Rezin, the kings of Israel and Syria, were bent on overthrowing Ahaz, king of Judah, in order to put the son of Tabeel upon his throne. (Isaiah 7:1-6) Jehovah, however, remembered his kingdom covenant with David, the forefather of Ahaz, and sent his prophet with the reassuring message of Isaiah 7:13-16."

    "...after telling about the birth of Isaiah’s second son, Maher-shalal-hash-baz, the prophecy next describes how the threat to Judah would be removed. As an irresistible flood, the Assyrians would completely inundate Syria and the northern kingdom of Israel, not stopping until they had dangerously spread over the land of Judah, even “to fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel!” Then...the prophet Isaiah warns all those in opposition to Jehovah: If you gird yourselves for war, if you plan out a scheme, if you speak a word against Jehovah—“it will not stand, for God is with us [Immanuel]!” (Isaiah 8:5-10)

    Of Isaiah’s second son, it was said: “Before the boy will know how to call out, ‘My father!’ and ‘My mother!’ one will carry away the resources of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria before the king of Assyria.” (Isaiah 8:1-4) Certainly this echoes what was said about Immanuel: “Before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings [of Damascus and Samaria] you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely.” (Isaiah 7:16) Also, the birth of Isaiah’s second son is presented in close connection with the further prophecy involving Immanuel and, as Immanuel was to be a “sign,” so also Isaiah said: “I and the children whom Jehovah has given me are as signs.”Isaiah 7:14; 8:18.

    Additionally, Isaiah’s wife is spoken of as “the prophetess,” not as “the maiden,” as well as the fact that she was already the mother of Isaiah’s firstborn, Shear-jashub, hence not a “maiden.” (Isaiah 7:3; 8:3) It may be noted, however, that the Hebrew word here translated “maiden” is not bethu·lahʹ, meaning, specifically, “virgin,” but is ʽal·mahʹ, having a broader reference to a young woman, who could be either a virgin maiden or a recently married woman. ʽAl·mahʹ as a common noun also occurs in other texts, more than one of which specifically involves virgin maidens. (Genesis 24:43; Psalm 68:25; Proverbs 30:19)

    If there seems to be a conflict between the angel’s instructions to Mary (“you are to call his name Jesus”) and Isaiah’s prophecy (“she will certainly call his name Immanuel”), let it be remembered that Messiah was also to be called by yet other names. (Luke 1:31; Isaiah 7:14) For example, Isaiah 9:6 said concerning this one: “His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” Yet none of these names were given to Mary’s firstborn as personal names, neither when he was a babe nor after he took up his ministry. Rather, they were all prophetic title-names by which Messiah would be identified....with his title Immanuel, he measured up to and fulfilled its meaning."

    Excerpts taken from Immanuel — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    I believe that you have misinterpreted and misunderstood what you have read. :( I am even hearing a sad kind of resignation in your words. I get the feeling that you really want to believe, but something is preventing you.

    If you were attached to a church in your youth, can I ask if you ever had a real relationship with God? Most people I have spoken to, don't. "Church" is more a duty to perform rather than a way to connect personally with the Creator. Once you experience this, you can never doubt again.

    If we reject the only recourse we have from God to gain everlasting life and find real meaning to our existence, where does that unbelief leave us? What future can we anticipate?

    Are you really sure that abandoning belief in God is what you want to do? I can see how you arrived at your conclusions but can I ask how you feel that you are better off in doing so? :shrug: What have you to gain as compared to what you have to lose? If seeds of doubt were planted...who planted them?
    We all have to weigh these things up and we all have to have faith in something. Who or what do you have faith in now?

    In the uncertainty of this world, I love the security of knowing that someone way stronger than myself is looking out for me. I can't rely on science or man to do that.
     
  3. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Indeed it is. The mindset of people indoctrinated into religion from infancy can never comprehend the true awesomeness of the universe.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How would you know this? :shrug: Belief in a powerful Creator (which science cannot disprove) makes me appreciate it all the more, knowing that it has a purpose and that it isn't all just a gigantic accident with nothing to look forward to. o_O
     
  5. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Putin stamps on lesser mortals!
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    Not capable of looking at a profile?

    Not publically I wouldn't, and you would be one of the last I would share any private information with - and I doubt you have anything like the trauma I have experienced.

    But you have just got this from someone else - not by any reasoning skills of your own - or any substantial evidence.

    Like every other religious individual? And the heart is for pumping blood about - use the head instead - I think we (some of us at least) can see where you are going wrong

    Oh yes, and mindsets often lead to delusional beliefs too.


    S/He doesn't exist?

    :D :D :D Much the same might apply to you, Deeje, in that what you are missing is freedom and a life without conflict - especially when much of what you believe is so bizarre. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It was a rhetorical question. :facepalm:

    How would you know what anyone else is dealing with?

    Don't look now, but haven't you done exactly the same thing? :rolleyes: One finger pointed at me and three pointed back at yourself.

    The heart has been used figuratively for millennia.....but I guess you have to have one to understand. :p

    You hope.

    What freedom am I lacking? What conflict are you talking about? You have a very active imagination apparently.

    How is what I believe more bizarre than assuming that amoebas can transform themselves into dinosaurs on the say-so of people who were not even there? :shrug:
     
  7. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Putin stamps on lesser mortals!
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    Oh dear! :D :D :D
     
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  8. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    o_O

    You state that science cannot disprove belief in a powerful Creator. I don't think science can disprove belief in a powerful Creator, nor has it tried to. There is abundant evidence that many people have belief in a powerful Creator.

    If, on the other hand, you mean that science cannot disprove the actual existence of a powerful Creator, well, that's a pretty open claim. One would have to ask which powerful Creator?
    The one you have have been taught about since early childhood? One of the Hindi gods? One of the native American gods? It's pretty much an impossibility for science to disprove all the gods humans have created over the millennia. Science also cannot disprove the existence of psychic snowflakes. Your comment about science is meaningless.

    What is so important or wonderful about "knowing that it has a purpose". Can you not make your own purpose in life and have something to look forward to? What is this Grand Purpose that you imagine? What is it about this Grand Purpose that you appreciate? Or are you just riding along this Great Purpose believing that it will lead you being one of the 144,000 chosen to go to heaven?


    But, getting back to comprehending the true awesomeness of the universe. Your view, I believe, is that there is an omni-all god. This god did nothing for 99.999999999% of his existence. Then, in mere moments, crated everything. Yet somehow, things went wrong. Eve fell for the lies of a Satan/Snake. Eve convinced Adam and they both partook of the fruit of the tree. That's not awesome! That's pretty sad.

    • A brilliant red sunset caused by an omni-all god - no biggie.
    • A brilliant red sunset caused by desert sands being carried for thousands of miles - awesome.

    • The Grand Canyon created by an omni-all god - easy peasy.
    • The Grand Canyon created by slow erosion over tens of thousands of years - really awesome.

    • Land masses plopped over the earth here and there by an omni-all god - big whoop.
    • Land masses moving over the surface of the earth inch by inch for billions of years - really, really awesome.
     
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  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Yep, MHt, you certainly got that right, let me tell ya.
     
  10. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Putin stamps on lesser mortals!
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    These Aussies are all the same - a few cans of lager and away they go. :D :D
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Now you've gone too far as one of my favorite brews is Fosters.:mad:

    Repent!
     
  12. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Putin stamps on lesser mortals!
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    Oh dear. :oops:

    You have (had) an interesting line of work. I loved Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel - very persuasive. Not sure I have read much else though apart from related stuff like animal studies - language experiments and such.
     
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  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The irony is that I didn't "discover" anthropology until the beginning of my junior year during my undergrad years, jamming as many classes in that subject as I could prior to graduation, but then did almost all of my coursework in the subject during my grad years. Needless to say, it's a subject that's quite an eye-opener as you're probably already aware of.
     
  14. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Putin stamps on lesser mortals!
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    Oh yes, and I love watching any of the TV programmes dealing with those not so enmeshed with modern technological societies - always something to learn from them. Big field though.
     
    #794 Mock Turtle, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  15. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    But you are ignoring the rest of the sign, which is related to the war against Pekah and Rezin and to the emperor of Assyria.

    The gospel is missing 3 crucial verses (7:15-17) relating to Immanuel. Example, the boy has to reach a certain age, before Assyria intervene.

    Plus, “Immanuel” and the “God is with us” are mentioned again relating to the war with Israel and Aram and to Assyria’s intervention, first at Isaiah 8:8 with “O Immanuel”, and then on verse 8:10 with “God is with us”.

    All these verses indicated that Immanuel would be born before the war ended.

    That Immanuel reappeared in Isaiah 8, only reinforced the idea that the sign is related to the two kings (Pekah and Rezin) and to the King of the Assyrians.

    That you refused to see that, only demonstrated i cannot trust your logic or your interpretations of Isaiah 7 & 8.

    Which is one of my points, why I had to rethink the bible in the first place.


    No, I did believe for nearly 20 years.

    But re-reading the bible after 14 year hiatus, and my experiences with working with ancient literature of all sorts, i understand the bible better than when I was younger because I didn’t have the experiences and knowledge I have now.

    Some people become more knowledgeable and mature as they get older.

    So no, believing in things when I younger, and have doubts with my belief, is actually enlightening, because I can see through the BS from Christian teachings.

    I have already walked in Christian shoes, but as an agnostic I see the errors in Christians trying to twist Hebrew-Jewish literature.

    The problem is, Deeje, is that you are biased, and viewing Hebrew texts in Christian and JW eyes, when you reading should be reading through Jewish eyes, since the Old Testament is a Jewish texts.
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is obvious to me that anything that cannot be proven requires faith and belief. Evolution, (which cannot be proven according to the scientists here) requires as much, if not more faith and belief IMO than ID does. Evolutionists just can't admit it.

    We humans need to have purpose. It goes with having a concept of the future and planning for it. Animals do not have this capacity. A meaningless life with no purpose but selfish concerns benefits no one.

    You don't know much about JW do you? The majority of JW's on earth today have no desire to go to heaven. God's purpose in the beginning was to have humans live forever on earth. This is "home" to us.

    God's Grand Purpose does not disappear because humans choose to disbelieve him. What do atheists have to look forward to? They only have today to accomplish whatever it is they need to do in life. No one is guaranteed tomorrow. Once it's over, it's over. How can that be a satisfying thought? What is the point of our existence if this life is all there is? What if you were a person finally completing many years of a university degree, with great plans for the future and a promising career, but whose life is lost in a car accident before they can use any of their education.....just a tragedy?

    ....or a child born in a third world country, put to hard labor in a mine with no choices about anything? Is that child really living? Who cares about these children? In this day and age, has man's rulership given hope to anyone that they can ever get things right? You have to have faith in them, because who else is there?

    It's funny how atheists can sit in judgment on the Being who is responsible for their existence. Something about "biting the hand that feeds you" comes to mind.

    Since you have a very distorted view of this Being and his activities, it is your conclusions that are sad. If you even took the time to see the big picture rather than staring at a few apparently dead pixels, you would understand that digging deeper reveals more evidence.....just as it is suppose to do in science.

    And here is evidence that you completely misinterpret the evidence. Not surprising really because this is what evolutionary science excels at. Then they teach the misinterpretation as truth. Creationists do the same thing on the opposite end of this subject.

    You assume that all ID proponents are YEC's. That is not true. JW's believe in an old earth and a slow and deliberate process of creation over eons of time. The Genesis account does not disagree with this. Some deeper research will reveal that.

    There is middle ground on this subject but neither side wants to admit that they could be wrong....why? Because their position represents their "religion". Yes, science is a "religion" to some people.

    Accepting what science can prove, and also seeing the plain evidence of design in creation, gives us plenty of space to accept both science and the Bible. Since we believe that God is responsible for both, we have no conflict. We are not anti-science, just anti-science fudging the truth....presenting suggestions as if they were real evidence.

    Your examples leave out the obvious law of "cause and effect". All of those things have a common cause.....why can't that great first cause be an all powerful Creator? Does science really KNOW that such a power cannot exist? Why is such a belief so repugnant? Isn't it because of what creationists insist is the Bible's scenario?

    The truth is somewhere in the middle.....but balance is not easy for a lot of people.
     
    #796 Deeje, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What did you believe though? If you got Christendom's version of "Christianity" then you had the same choices that I did. I was raised in the church system....I realized in my late teens that it was complete rubbish! Different versions of the same lies. No one really followed what Jesus taught.

    I too understand more now than I did 40 years ago. As my knowledge of the scriptures grew, so did my appreciation for the Creator and my understanding of our place in the big picture. Unless you know what God was doing at the beginning, you will never understand what happens in the middle or how he arrives at its grand conclusion in the end. This all means something bigger than our individual place in it.

    I agree. But its the kind of knowledge we feed our mind that has an impact on the conclusions we reach.
    Its often not a case of "what" we believe, but "who" and "why".

    Its a shame that you threw the baby out with the bathwater. I threw away bad religion, but I never threw away God. I had experienced his hand early in my life, so his existence was never in question for me....I just had to find where he was in the religious maze. (which I believe was created by God's adversary)
    Jehovah was never the author of Christendom's religion to begin with. He wasn't the author of what the Pharisees taught either. First century Christianity finds no common ground with what is called "Christianity" today. Modern Judaism finds no common ground with what was prescribed by God on Mount Sinai. The two are mirror images of each other but they can't see it. Both strayed far away from the path set for them.

    The more I investigate the Hebrew scriptures in the light of Christ's teachings, the clearer things become. I don't rely on the Jewish slant on their scriptures for the simple reason that Jesus called their teachings "leaven" IOW, they corrupted the meaning of their own scriptures. Jesus came to correct those corruptions, just as he has corrected the same kinds of corruptions in Christendom. Both have the same source for their false teachings.The truth shines like a beacon for those with eyes of faith.

    Every time I consult Strongs for the meaning of original language words, I am seldom disappointed in their definitions, but sometimes question their interpretations and applications. I am mindful that most Bible scholars are Bible believers and will interpret according to whatever leaning they have been taught.

    It is an interesting position that you have taken gnostic. You see my view as biased when the ones from whom you have received your own ideas appear to be equally biased. The truth is, everyone has bias....so it then it becomes a choice about "who" to believe, rather than "what" to believe. We will choose according to what appeals to the heart....which in turn tells us a lot about ourselves really.
     
    #797 Deeje, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  18. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Pretty much all of the above commentary that you have quoted on the subject of Immanuel, agree with my post, including posts from my old thread, ha‘’almah harah: "a young woman is pregnant" in 2013.

    I did bring up everything including transliteration of “al’mah” (young woman) and “harah” (“has conceived” or “is pregnant”), as well as how closely the wordings are to Hagar’s pregnancy (Genesis 16:11) to what Isaiah say in 7:14.

    The word “harah” is a present and past tense for a woman who already conceived and therefore pregnant.

    I have had also made precisely the same points in earlier thread by @CG Didymus in 2012, Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context.

    The only part that in your quote from Watchtower disagree with me is the last paragraph :

    ...which is more BS, because no one in the 4 gospels ever call Jesus “Immanuel”.
     
  19. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    The only corruption I see is the gospel author of Matthew, quoting and taking Isaiah’s sign completely out of context.

    The sign of Immanuel isn’t the pregnancy itself 7:14, but at what age Immanuel is WHEN the Assyrian emperor in the war, against the two kings, Pekah and Rezin.

    Why is Immanuel again in the Isaiah 8:8 & 8:10 as parts of the sign (Isaiah 8:3-10) in the war of the 8th century BCE?

    Immanuel is Maher-shalal-hash-baz, not Jesus. The signs (in 7 & 8) all relate to both king of Assyria and the invasion of Judah.
     
  20. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    You seemed to be forgetting, Deeje, is my points bringing up the sign of Immanuel, is that it was my first doubt (in 2014) on Christian interpretation of the bible.

    You stated earlier in the thread, that I have been indoctrinated by the evolutionists.

    No, there was no indoctrination by science. It was me rethinking the whole bible without Christian preconceptions that started me doubting Matthew 1:22-23 and Isaiah 7:14.

    That was the origin of my agnosticism, not Evolution vs Genesis creation. I didn’t join the Evolution vs Creation until 2003.

    I did question Genesis creation in 2000-2003, but not from evolution or biology standpoint, but from Christians identifying the serpent to Satan/Devil.

    I disagree with Christian argument that Satan was Eden’s serpent (Genesis 3) as well as with Christian view that Satan was Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12).

    These are more Christian colouring Jewish Hebrew texts.
     
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