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Featured COVID-19: God's Punishment for Homosexuality?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by The Hammer, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    'Might makes Right' is what 'man' has used to dominate man to man's injury, to man's hurt - Ecclesiastes 8:9
    When president Johnson was Senator he said whoever has the ultimate position has the ultimate power.
    So, we have 'men ' with their Space Race to have the ultimate position so as to have ultimate power over Earth.
    Man's history has proven that man can't successfully govern himself. Can't establish Peace on Earth.
    Thus, it is man who brings more-and-more ruin to Earth.
    This is why God, through Jesus, will bring to ruin those who are ruining the Earth - Revelation 11:18 B.
     
  2. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Your god has used the same tools over and over and over himself.

    Would you looks at that more threats of annihilation and violence by your deity?

    Your deity has created everthing, allowed all the horrors possibly imagineable and personnaly sanctioned all of them too and is now making the promise that he will put an end to all of this by bathing the world in blood like it has never been before. Don't you think all of this sounds like the myths of a bitter death cult who claim they will have vengeance against those who defeated and humiliated them? Afterall, your creed was built by people in exile after their nation was crushed by a stronger power (not that they were any kinder or better when they were in position of strength either or with those further bellow).
     
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  3. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    You can follow whatever morality you like. I will follow God and Jesus Christ.

    No, it makes 'you' wonder. Not me.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  4. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Apart from the awesome God of the Bible, you have no objective moral values. All you have is your particular version of subjective moral relativism where your views and values aren't any more meaningful than the next moral relativist.

    Gay sex is an abomination. God has already judged that as one of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. It doesn't matter whether you believe that or not. It still happened.
     
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  5. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Your God doesn't have objective morality either so neither can you. Following someone elses subjective values isn't objective.
     
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  6. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Sadly you are welcome to worship whatever monstrous being you wish. You can believe that your god is such a hateful creature that he wants you to stone other human being to death simply because they happen to love someone of the same sex. You can choose to worship a wicked being that would willingly drown newborn infants simply because they were unfortunate enough to have been born to evil parents. You can praise your god for brutally slaughtering innocent people for the crimes committed by others. But let's not pretend that his bloody tyrant you revere is anything close to a 'loving being' or even has the slightest notion of what genuine morality is. You sound like the ignorant masses with no moral center who worshiped Lenin, Hitler, and Mao as superior beings.

    Both sad and disgusting.
     
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  7. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    If it weren't for God's loving grace, you wouldn't even be breathing.

    As for God allegedly being evil...

    Richard Dawkins vs. Ravi Zacharias

    Dawkins: “What do I think about God? The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomanical, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” – Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

    Ravi Zacharias responds: “Now, he (Dawkins) just finished telling us God’s a fictional character! That’s half of the point. The other half of the point is what he thinks about humanity. He goes on to say that basically, he believes in the goodness of humanity without God watching over. Either I’m confused or he is. If God doesn’t exist and all these descriptions apply, then who did these things? Who wrote the Old Testament if God didn’t inspire the words? That would be his answer. And who ordered all these things? That would be humanity. Why are you (Dawkins) so positive about humanity and so down on God when it was humanity who manufactured the God that you deny?” And who killed all those people throughout history – hundreds of millions of them, if God is fictional? It was humanity. Your humanity, QuestioningMind.

    p.s. The acceptance and advancement of sodomy, and all the other ungodly acts of liberal humanists, including the butchery of the innocent unborn, is no virtue.
     
  8. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense.
     
  9. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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  10. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Your god's tastes are just tastes. Being powerful doesn't make taste objective. It just makes you more capable of imposing them to others.
     
  11. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    You don't know what's a none sequitur argument do you?
     
  12. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    If it weren't for God's loving grace, you wouldn't even be breathing.

    If i weren't for the loving grace of the Sta-Puff Marshmallow man you wouldn't even be breathing.

    Okay, now we've both made fantastical claims for which neither of us has any verifiable evidence. Shall we move on?

    As for God allegedly being evil...

    Any allegations concerning your god being evil come from the book that you claim is the history and word of your god. If you want to admit that this book was really just a story made up by fallible human beings, then we can agree. If not then you still face the problem of attempting to twist morality so that drowning innocent newborns and punishing people for crimes committed by someone else is a good and loving thing.

    You see, if we admit that these horrible atrocities throughout history were committed by human beings then we can label such humans as being wicked and evil. But if you insist that your God caused a flood that drowned infants and sent down plagues to kill Egyptian citizens because of the crimes committed by their tyrannical leader then you're forced to redefine such reprehensible actions as a 'moral behavior'.

    As someone with a moral center I'm simply not capable of redefining such wicked actions as being just and right. If your god tells me that it's ethically proper for me to kill someone who happens to love a member of the same sex or who works on a certain day of the week, I'm not capable of ignoring what I know to be wrong and redefine it as the right and proper thing to do.

    Sadly far too many theists appear to have no moral center of their own and are more than willing to accept whatever authority tells them is morally correct.
     
  13. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Tsk tsk... You have a stunted view of scripture, O God mocker.

    If you're going to cast stones at God for his righteous judgments on wicked men and nations - the Canaanites, Jebusites, Amorites, etc., etc. - (do you need a list of their sins, sacrificing their babies to Molech, etc.?), then you also have to give the Biblical God credit for all the wonderful things he's done.

    - Creating the universe and the world we live in
    - Creating mankind
    - Delivering the Israelites supernaturally from slavery, murder, and mistreatment in Egypt
    - Raising up the dead
    - Healing the crippled
    - Giving sight to the blind
    - Restoring Israel as a nation again in fulfillment of the prophecies in Ezekiel 39
    - Sending Jesus as the atonement for sacrifice and the salvation of billions

    Those for starters. Why didn't those wonderful acts proceed out of your God-mocking mouth? Too biased to present the good qualities of God? Why then should anyone take you seriously if you can't present the whole story?

    Like I said before, if it weren't for God's grace you wouldn't even be breathing.
     
  14. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Flush
     
  15. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    You backed yourself into a corner and don't even realize it.

    Counting the hits and ignoring the misses is just as bad as your accusation of counting the misses and ignoring the hits.

    Of course, you are here trying to justify the misses...

    "...his righteous judgments... "​
     
  16. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    To add to your point. A supreme deity like the one Spartan believes in cannot be righteous since righteousness implies a deference to a higher principle or set of value. A supreme deity cannot have a higher set of principle or value that is greater and more important than itself. It's judgment can't even be called "correct" since there is no standards by which it has to abide to.
     
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  17. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    That's neither good nore bad. Nobody asked him to create anything at any point and he would not have harmed anybody or anything by not creating anything. Plus, the univers and the world we live in isn't exactly perfectly suited for our needs. Your deity doesn't have the moral obligation to create stuff.

    Again creating us is neither good or bad. Nobody asked to be born and not everybody is happy to be alive. Your deity doesn't have the moral obligation to create humans.

    That's a good think, but only for the Israelites since they themselves would take into slavery, murder and mistreat other people. The way he delivered them from Egyptian rule in your myth is far from perfect. It implies the death and destruction of many innocent lives that a deity with such power wasn't forced to destroy.

    I have resuscitated two person in my life so far. It's certainly a good action I'll give you that, but not exactly worthy of worship. I know someone who has done so dozens of times. CPR was a rare, nearly miraculous skill back in the days, but now, it's one of the most basic medical skills. Any person can learn it and bring back from the dead someone.

    Goodness gracious! You must be on your knees every day kissing the floor of nurses, therapists and doctors since that's basically their job description. It's a good thing that once in a while your deity does something some humans do every day, hundreds of time.

    Depending on the cause of blindness, medical science has cured countless people of blindness, especially if you considered blindness caused by cataracts, a very common type, Mayans were the first to cure it and the practice was known even in Europe Middle Ages.

    God's magic or direct participation to those events has yet to be demonstrated. So far, it took efforts and the sacrifices of thousands of Jews to be achieved and maintain. Note that the fact that this is a good thing is sometime contentious since for Israel to be born thousands had to die and be thrown in exile themselves and Israeli rule isn't always a paragon of justice, reason, love and humanity.

    That's basically the arsonist playing firefighter. That's hardly considered a high mark of morality, but it's not as bad as being a pure arsonist, but it's a far cry from not being a an arsonist let alone a firefighter.
     
    #137 epronovost, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
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  18. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but the fact that an entity may have done some good things does not mean that the wicked and reprehensible acts they preform are somehow 'moral behavior'. It can be said that my parents created me and by their grace allow me to breath, and I can be grateful to them for that. They might be generous and caring to strangers and engage in all sorts of morally acceptable behavior. But it doesn't mean that if they beat and molest my sister that it automatically makes it an acceptable and moral act. And if I'm asked if my parents are 'moral individuals' and I respond, no, and then list the immoral acts they have committed that disqualifies them from being considered moral individuals, I am NOT being biased in my response just because I didn't mention that they also happened to perform some morally correct actions during their lives. That's because the moral acts they performed do not magically erase their immoral actions.

    Being the creator of the universe and the creator of mankind or healing some cripples and giving sight to some who are blind doesn't make the drowning of infants and punishing the first born sons of everyone unfortunate to live under a tyrant for that tyrant's stubbornness the actions of a moral being. They are examples of immoral actions, regardless of who commits them. It seems to me that you're the one with the bias, since you want everyone to praise and worship your god for the good he has performed, while pretending that the vile and immoral acts he's also committed somehow aren't.
     
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  19. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    God doesn't live by your "anything goes" mindset. There's not a nation in the Old Testament who suffered God's Judgment whose sins are unknown or non-existent. And for the liberal-minded, who approve of the mass extermination of the innocent unborn, to call God wicked and evil, is highly hypocritical.
     
  20. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    You want to second guess God and/or sluff off his miracles, go ahead. Neither God nor myself are impressed. You remind me of the scientist who said to God,

    “Lord, we don’t need you anymore. Science has figured out a way to create life out of nothing. In other words, we can now do what you did in the beginning.”

    “Oh, is that so? Tell me more,” replies God.
    “Well,” says the scientist, “we can take dirt and form it and create life.”
    “Well, that’s interesting. Show Me.”
    So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.
    “No, no, no, no,” interrupts God. “Make your own dirt.”

    Jesus is Lord.
     
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