• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Could those angels who rebelled in heaven have received salvation?

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
1. Was salvation on offer to Satan and his angels who rebelled?
2. If salvation was on offer, how then might that have looked given that he rebelled before Adam and Eve sinned? No plan of salvation had been given to mankind as they [Adam and Eve] had not yet sinned!
I'm sure God would accept their repentance if offered, but the chances of the fallen angels reprenting is rather slim. Their rebellion is quite different from mankind's rebellion against God as they know for a fact that God is the Lord and the Creator and that Jesus is the Son of God, as they are non-physical beings who existed in the heavenly realms. They are overcome with extreme hubris and hatred of God and humanity. So they are basically insane and will never repent. Maybe eventually all souls will be saved through the work of God's grace and mercy, but who knows as the soul has to willingly go on that journey. God doesn't force you to love Him. Unfortunately for those who choose to turn away, there is really no such thing as separation from God as He is the fount of existence and infinite. So they will just burn in their hatred (hell).
 
Last edited:

101G

Well-Known Member
To all,
the event in Revelation 12 as to angels, are not angelic in nature, NO. angels here are symbolic for messengers.
G32 ἄγγελος aggelos (an'-ğe-los) n.
1. a messenger.
2. (especially) an “angel” of God.
3. (of evil, Satan) a demon.
4. (by implication) a person carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a servant (a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc.).
5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).
[from aggello “to bring tidings” (possibly derived from G71)]
KJV: angel, messenger

so the term here simply means "a messenger" as definition #1 clearly states. either HUMAN as definitions #4 points out or heavenly as definition #2 points out.
this EVENT took place on earth, and the angels here are HUMAN Messengers. this event is recorded in Matthews chapter 2 with the Birth of the Christ. just read Matthews chapter 2. all the character in Revelation chapter 12 are there in Matthews chapter 2.

101G.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
If we look at the heavens as the throne region of God, then deduct from this area lower more base aspects of experience, then it's difficult to not acknowledge a fallen nature to some extent. I view the throne region where the Seraphim cherubim and thrones are located to be the universe and within this region there are other forces present, which make up the laws and order aspect of life. Physics, spiritual and/or emotional mechanics that effect our experiences as living creatures. We identify our experiences through these and further base our values on them. Can fallen angels be redeemed? Can we? The answer is there. I can be, but whether you acknowledge this is where your answer will be.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Rev 12: 7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

vs 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

Clearly the Devil and his angels were condemned to death after they rebelled and were cast out of heaven.

We know that Jesus offered salvation to mankind on this world...

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1. Was salvation on offer to Satan and his angels who rebelled?
2. If salvation was on offer, how then might that have looked given that he rebelled before Adam and Eve sinned? No plan of salvation had been given to mankind as they [Adam and Eve] had not yet sinned!
I have always been most curious to hear their side of the story...
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
I'm sure God would accept their repentance if offered, but the chances of the fallen angels reprenting is rather slim. Their rebellion is quite different from mankind's rebellion against God as they know for a fact that God is the Lord and the Creator and that Jesus is the Son of God, as they are non-physical beings who existed in the heavenly realms. They are overcome with extreme hubris and hatred of God and humanity. So they are basically insane and will never repent. Maybe eventually all souls will be saved through the work of God's grace and mercy, but who knows as the soul has to willingly go on that journey. God doesn't force you to love Him. Unfortunately for those who choose to turn away, there is really no such thing as separation from God as He is the fount of existence and infinite. So they will just burn in their hatred (hell).

The story I've heard told was about the honor of humans and those fallen who refused to extend honor. I'm unsure why the refusal, unless it's about having too great a sense of superiority. The humility association with the fall due to the refusal would set them at odds with humans. Humans don't like to be forced and I will assume the fallen are much like us. This opens up another paradigm. The dynamics associated with hell, separation, and the grave ... understanding that to die like men after falling as a prince, becomes the price paid for the dishonor. Can they be redeemed? I would suggest they are being redeemed just as we are. To "love your neighbor as yourself" are likely not just idle words, but a necessity if we desire reconciliation. If not, then I would suggest you're correct in your last statement. They will continue to be fueled by the hatred. To note specifically: Just hatred is just and due.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Seventh Day Adventists largely believe that after the death of Christ on the cross, the window/door of forgiveness and redemption for Satan and his angels has closed.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I think so, but they don't want salvation. They are unwilling to compromise their independence to conform to the authority of God, and so they have chosen to live in separation from him.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is symbolic of law, is symbolically connected to Satan; Satan in that tree. God never condoned law in paradise. If fact, God made a taboo against law. However, since Adam and Eve chose law; knowledge of good and evil, God still wanted to help them, by assigning them Satan; tutor, to be the Lord of the Earth, in charge of humans and in charge of law. Satan was the law expert, so they were to be trained by the best, albeit, not by God first choice for humans. This would be like wanting your child to be Doctor, but they choose to be an Artist. This is not optimized and you may not be happy, but since you love your child, you hire a top artist to be their teacher.

Satan; the teacher, was condoned in heaven, through the Old and New Testament, until Revelations, where he and law were no longer condoned in Heaven, as a way to salvation. The analogy is a child may learn analogies of science, like an atom is like the planets orbiting the earth. But by the time you reach High School, this model is no longer condoned, as one gets introduced to the concept of wave functions. What had been good in the childhood of humans, needed to replaced, with something more adult and closer to the truth.

Satan and his dark angels being thrown to earth, is about a throwback to the past, that was once educational, like taboos, but which are no longer useful for a mature audience; no longer condoned in heaven, but still being practiced by the immature humans. The dark angels and Satan, who are thrown to earth, are there to help people understand how what had been useful in ancient times; can now create pitfalls in a more mature time. For example, law used to be made for the righteous man to protect him from the compulsive and predatory evil. But now in modern times, law can also be used for the purpose of evil and for escaping justice; crooked lawyers and loopholes; Al Capone.

Fan fiction debates can be fun. Perhaps the angels are intelligent enough to be without excuse. It's But then why did they rebel in the first place? It is a bit of a conundrum. It appears that no matter how you approach rebelling angels problem there is a problem with the concept of an all knowing, all loving, omnipotent God.


The story seems to tell us that God clearly is not all powerful, or all knowing.

Another way to look at this is this symbolism is part of a larger plan, connected to our continuing human education about knowledge of good and evil. But now this is more for modern mature people. As an analogy, the blatant election interference, where a leading candidate for President in the USA, is under a wide range of trials, for a wide range of charges, could have been approached last year, if it was so important. But it was deliberately postponed, so it could be more effective for election interference; tie up the candidate's campaign time and campaign money; $1/2 billion, to deliberately harm his election chances; misusing the power of law.

This is a good demonstration of the corruption side of law. This blatant demonstration is needed to wake people up, who still think the same people in charge, were never capable of such legal loophole abuses of law, in past elections. The dark angels have a job, which is to encourage evil in people to help awaken those who sleep in their ignorant bliss of self deception. Many still think law is still for the righteous man, and not also for the crooked man. Lawyers are among the least trusted profession. What does this lack of trustworthiness, say about law being easy to abuse?

In trials, the witnesses are required to tell the truth, under the risk of perjury and jail. Why aren't the lawyers; prosecutors and defense lawyers also required to tell the truth in all trails, under the risk of jail? The shadiest people have the most freedom to lie??? This is symbolic of Satan still in charge of Law, not God. Law, as this, is not condoned in Heaven. Both the offense and defense are allowed to have liberties with the truth, via loopholes, that even the most honest witness does not enjoy symbolic difference between law once in heaven and now on earth. At one time lawyers had fear of God.

President Trump may be part of this dark angel dynamics, in that he is competitive and instinctively knows how to bring out the worse, in the worse people, by virtue of his pride, and his ingenuity and wealth; can pay the best lawyers for loopholes. The once hidden two faced darkness of these people now have come out on full display, so that even the blind can see. Many still do not care or get it. The goal may be for people to wake up so law can modernize and return to being for the righteous man. The light appearing in the darkness; contrasting the laws, loopholes and legal games of the evil man. Those who practice evil law are in panic mode; all caution to the wind. It may be that half of the dark angels will find redemption, using the power of darkness, against the darkness, to help the good angels; Holy Sprit.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is symbolic of law, is symbolically connected to Satan; Satan in that tree. God never condoned law in paradise. If fact, God made a taboo against law. However, since Adam and Eve chose law; knowledge of good and evil, God still wanted to help them, by assigning them Satan; tutor, to be the Lord of the Earth, in charge of humans and in charge of law. Satan was the law expert, so they were to be trained by the best, albeit, not by God first choice for humans. This would be like wanting your child to be Doctor, but they choose to be an Artist. This is not optimized and you may not be happy, but since you love your child, you hire a top artist to be their teacher.

Satan; the teacher, was condoned in heaven, through the Old and New Testament, until Revelations, where he and law were no longer condoned in Heaven, as a way to salvation. The analogy is a child may learn analogies of science, like an atom is like the planets orbiting the earth. But by the time you reach High School, this model is no longer condoned, as one gets introduced to the concept of wave functions. What had been good in the childhood of humans, needed to replaced, with something more adult and closer to the truth.

Satan and his dark angels being thrown to earth, is about a throwback to the past, that was once educational, like taboos, but which are no longer useful for a mature audience; no longer condoned in heaven, but still being practiced by the immature humans. The dark angels and Satan, who are thrown to earth, are there to help people understand how what had been useful in ancient times; can now create pitfalls in a more mature time. For example, law used to be made for the righteous man to protect him from the compulsive and predatory evil. But now in modern times, law can also be used for the purpose of evil and for escaping justice; crooked lawyers and loopholes; Al Capone.



Another way to look at this is this symbolism is part of a larger plan, connected to our continuing human education about knowledge of good and evil. But now this is more for modern mature people. As an analogy, the blatant election interference, where a leading candidate for President in the USA, is under a wide range of trials, for a wide range of charges, could have been approached last year, if it was so important. But it was deliberately postponed, so it could be more effective for election interference; tie up the candidate's campaign time and campaign money; $1/2 billion, to deliberately harm his election chances; misusing the power of law.

This is a good demonstration of the corruption side of law. This blatant demonstration is needed to wake people up, who still think the same people in charge, were never capable of such legal loophole abuses of law, in past elections. The dark angels have a job, which is to encourage evil in people to help awaken those who sleep in their ignorant bliss of self deception. Many still think law is still for the righteous man, and not also for the crooked man. Lawyers are among the least trusted profession. What does this lack of trustworthiness, say about law being easy to abuse?

In trials, the witnesses are required to tell the truth, under the risk of perjury and jail. Why aren't the lawyers; prosecutors and defense lawyers also required to tell the truth in all trails, under the risk of jail? The shadiest people have the most freedom to lie??? This is symbolic of Satan still in charge of Law, not God. Law, as this, is not condoned in Heaven. Both the offense and defense are allowed to have liberties with the truth, via loopholes, that even the most honest witness does not enjoy symbolic difference between law once in heaven and now on earth. At one time lawyers had fear of God.

President Trump may be part of this dark angel dynamics, in that he is competitive and instinctively knows how to bring out the worse, in the worse people, by virtue of his pride, and his ingenuity and wealth; can pay the best lawyers for loopholes. The once hidden two faced darkness of these people now have come out on full display, so that even the blind can see. Many still do not care or get it. The goal may be for people to wake up so law can modernize and return to being for the righteous man. The light appearing in the darkness; contrasting the laws, loopholes and legal games of the evil man. Those who practice evil law are in panic mode; all caution to the wind. It may be that half of the dark angels will find redemption, using the power of darkness, against the darkness, to help the good angels; Holy Sprit.
Attorneys do not present evidence at trials. And lawyers can and do get into trouble if they do lie, or worse, try to get witnesses or their clients to lie. It is called "suborning perjury". In fact if an attorney even knows that the person on the stand testifying is lying he can be charged with that crime:


And you seem to have done forgotten Republican interference. Due to Trumpism being a cult that has taken over the party, even Trump brags about that, the investigations were constantly delayed.

You need to dump the cult and see if you can reason rationally at all.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Rev 12: 7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

vs 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

Clearly the Devil and his angels were condemned to death after they rebelled and were cast out of heaven.

We know that Jesus offered salvation to mankind on this world...

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1. Was salvation on offer to Satan and his angels who rebelled?
2. If salvation was on offer, how then might that have looked given that he rebelled before Adam and Eve sinned? No plan of salvation had been given to mankind as they [Adam and Eve] had not yet sinned!
In the theology I espouse, the "Plan of Salvation" was known before any person was born on the earth. We were all informed; we were all given a choice. Lucifer rejected the plan, declared himself "god," attempted to usurp God's authority and destroy our freedom to choose and, now (at that point) as Satan (the Flatterer, Deceiver, Slanderer), by his own choice had no part of the grace and light of God and, dooming himself to eternal darkness. Those of God's other children who likewise chose that path, with Satan as their god, share his fate. They are beyond redemption; they cannot repent; they are inheritors of the wages of Satan, their god: "perdition" (the condition of being lost, wasted, squandered).

So, so sad.

The answers I offer, then:
1. No. Salvation is only offered to God's children who come to earth and endure the trials here as mortals; Satan and his followers will never be born, never die, and never be resurrected or redeemed. Satan will even lose his "kingdom." God said Cain would rule over Satan in the eternities in hell. (Moses 5:23) What a sad fate; Lucifer won't even be the "top devil." He forfeited everything because he was proud and thought he knew better than God, and tried to destroy God's family.
2. Moot, because #1.
 
Last edited:
Top