1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Could the Hyksos be the Ancient Hebrew of the bible?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by ProfLogic, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,855
    Ratings:
    +10,212
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The remarkable and shameless ignorance demonstrated by such statements should only invoke pity.
     
  2. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    15,890
    Ratings:
    +3,929
    Religion:
    Pi π
    The Hyksos were expulsed before 1530 BCE, by the beginning of the 18th Dynasty of the New Kingdom (beginning with its dynasty founder Ahmose, reign 1539-1514 BCE). This is too early to be the Hebrew Exodus.

    In the Exodus, it speak of the time when the Egyptians made the Hebrews into slaves, to build the cities of Pithom and Rameses that is within the Goshen region, where Jacob's family had settled.

    There were no pharaohs named Rameses until the 19th Dynasty (as well as in the 20th Dynasty), and the 19th Dynasty, which didn't begin until 1292 BCE.

    According to my calculation of the Genesis' patriarchs (see Timeline of the Patriarchs in the 2nd table), Jacob and his family didn't turn up in Egypt until around 1522 BCE, and the famine ended in 1516. Jacob died in 1505 and Joseph in 1451.

    There were no reported Biblical 7-Year's Famine between 1524 and 1516 in the historical Egypt, which smack dead in Ahmose's reign (1539-1512). Egypt was still divided and Hyksos still existed and in power in the region of Avaris. Ahmose didn't attempt to drive out the Hyksos, until his 10th year, which means around 1529 BCE, and the Hyksos' dynasty didn't ended and expulsed until 1523 BCE. There is also no report that his advisor was Hyksos, let alone of Hebrew origin; this new king was seeking an independent Egypt, and reunified Upper and Lower Egypt, so Ahmose would not even consider having any foreigner to be his governor or advisor.

    The Hyksos (1630-1523 BCE) were said to rule after the collapse of the Middle Kingdom dynasties in a period known as the Second Intermediate Period, but they existed with the 17th Dynasty (1630-1540 BCE), which were confined in the Upper Egypt, with their capital Thebes. The Hyksos' Dynasty also didn't have any king by the name of Rameses.

    I don't think there is any link between the Hyksos and the Biblical Hebrews, except that the Hyksos were known (mistakenly) as the Shepherd Kings, and when Jacob's family came into Egypt as shepherds (Genesis 46:28-34), and they both lived in the Eastern part of the Delta. There is only 5 generations between Jacob and Moses (4 generations, if you look at from Moses' mother's side, since Amram married his aunt, Jochebed, (Amram's father's sister, Exodus 6:20), so the timing is all wrong for the Hyksos-Hebrew connection.

    Jacob had only arrived in Egypt, just before the Hyksos dynasty had fallen, and there is too much time between Hyksos' expulsion to coincide with Israelites going on Exodus with Moses, who supposedly left during the time of Rameses' Dynasty.

    I think it would make it a lot easier if the compilers of the Genesis and Exodus, would actually put names of the Egyptian kings, ruling during the time of seven-year's famine and of Moses' time.

    I don't trust Josephus' supposed source of Manetho, or even Manetho himself is accurate in any way.
     
  3. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    10,912
    Ratings:
    +954
    Religion:
    Narrow-minded Biblist
    "Good Lord," I said to myself waking up on the floor.

    "What happened?"

    "Where am I?"

    "What am I doing on the floor?"

    Arising I noticed that my computer was still on. Pushing the space bar, "Religious Forums" appeared on the screen on a page with a post prominently displayed. Then it came rushing back accompanied by a wave of nausea.

    "Good Lord," I repeated to myself, I agree with Jayhawker Soule.

    My world will never be the same.
     
  4. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    I was taught the same thing in a college course on the OT.
     
  5. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    18,945
    Ratings:
    +1,494
    Okay, I'm glad someone else had this taught, I thought I was going crazy there for a second.
     
  6. kateyes

    kateyes Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    541
    Ratings:
    +71

    I thought this was supposed to be a discussion forum--If you have issues with the posts regarding the Hykos--what information do you have to dispute the allegations. Have YOU taken the time to read any serious work on the topic. What would YOU consider a serious work on the topic? Gnostic took the time to present valid arguements against the theory. All you did was bombast.
     
  7. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,129
    Ratings:
    +38
    People believed that the OT had a vengeful god that is why genocide/murder was done as part of the OT. The NT made it a gentle god. So if the hyksos were thrown/chased out of the country, its people more than likely did not trust their leaders, so what would a human leader do to gain their support... there make up a powerful god that would kill you if you do not follow. The hyksos leaders then could use this to their advantage to re unite their broken civilization. I think you have a religious agenda and shows typical reaction, you should say what you posted to yourself otherwise state why the hyksos can not possibly be the ancient hebrew. Maybe you are one of those people that just yells blasphemy to get attention.
     
  8. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    15,890
    Ratings:
    +3,929
    Religion:
    Pi π
    I would agree with angellous_evangellous on this assessment.

    Many people did this sort of things, including Jews and Christians, linking a person or group of people to their own people. This happens all the time.

    Take for the example, the Romans, they have linked their history with that of the Trojan hero, Aeneas, claiming him to be their ancestor. Authors of medieval legend on King Arthur had also linked the Britons or British people with Aeneas too. Lancelot and Galahad were said to be descendants of King David, or Perceval with that of Joseph of Arimathea. Alexander the Great believed that he is descendant of Achilles, and let's not forget that in Egypt, he believed that he was the son of the Egyptian god, Amon (or Amun).

    That Josephus had linked Hebrews with Hyksos, only shows that even historian are not above from exaggerating their heritage. I wouldn’t take this speculation or connection too seriously, ProfLogic.
     
  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,855
    Ratings:
    +10,212
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Yes. Starting with selections from the bookshelf behind me ...

    Exploring Exodus
    by Nahum M. Sarna​
    Oxford History of Ancient Egypt
    by Ian Shaw (editor)​
    Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times
    by Donald B. Redford​
    Ancient Israel's Faith and History: An Introduction to the Bible in Context
    by George E. Mendenhall​
    Archaeology of the Land of the Bible 10,000-586 B.C.E.
    by Amihai Mazar​
    The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
    by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman​
    What Did the Biblical Writers Know and when Did They Know It?, and
    Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come from?
    by William G. Dever​
    The Israelites
    by B.S.J. Isserlin​
    Archaeology and the Bible
    by John C. Laughlin​
    Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel, and
    From Epic to Canon: History and Literature in Ancient Israel
    by Frank Moore Cross​
    Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts, and
    Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel
    by Mark S. Smith​
    Babylonians
    by H.W.F. Saggs​
    Canaanites
    by Jonathan N. Tub​
    The Pentateuch
    by Joseph Blenkinsopp​
    How the Bible Became a Book: Textualization in Ancient Israel
    by William M. Schniedewind​
    Inane speculation such as ...
    ... is worth less than nothing. For one thing, there is an enormous body of work demonstrating a symmetry between Biblical formulations and those found in West Semitic / Ugaritic documents (see Mendenhall, Cross, and Smith). For another, there is ample evidence to suggest West Semitic polytheism and henotheism underlying the evolving Israelite folklore (see, for example, Deuteronomy 32:8). For a third, the absurd suggestion that a 1550 BCE expulsion stands behind "creating a vengefull god" ignores that fact that vengeful gods were far from unusual throughout the known ancient history of the Levant. For a fourth, it is simply silly to insist that a 1550 BCE event was the defining force of a narrative developed many centuries later.

    No, kateyes, this is not "supposed to be a discussion forum". It's suppose to be a debate forum - a place for reasoned arguments rather than pop psychology and tabloid speculation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. kateyes

    kateyes Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    541
    Ratings:
    +71
    Thank you for answering my question. I raised an issue I thought would make for some interesting discussion/debate. Clearly you did not find it to be either.
     
  11. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,129
    Ratings:
    +38
    How do you think these leaders kept their people intact without the the usage of the vengeful god? We see it in todays religions.. follow the life and preachings otherwise your soul would be in eternal damnation... Others say god would burn your soul.. revive it and burn it again.. etc. Unfortunately this constant preaching works on some people. Expalin why there was no other major migration from Egypt as described in the exodus. I have gone to Egypt and no one there knows of any other mass migration besides the Hyksos? I still say they could have written the bible to re-establish their nation, a nation that they wanted to make or make believe is better than the Egyptian civilization which was one of the leading cultures then.
     
  12. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,129
    Ratings:
    +38
    I don't recollect any of this information in Egyptian history. If the Ancient Egyptians truly encountered this bible god and believed later that it was powerful since it destoryed its armies, caused famine, killed innocent first borns, then it would have known that I was defeated by this god and thus in those times a stronger god needed to be adored, Egypt did not bow to this one god. The only mass migrating culture in Egypt is the Hyksos who in Egyptian history. Some of the stories of the bibles came from epics and fables.
     
  13. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    15,890
    Ratings:
    +3,929
    Religion:
    Pi π
    Which part of Egyptian history you don't recollect?

    I am saying that Hyksos' expulsion from Egypt took place before Jacob and his family arrived (during the seven-year's famine), so the Hyksos' expulsion and Moses' Exodus could not possibly be the same. According to my calculation of the Genesis' timeline, Jacob's arrival coincide with Ahmose' reign, the 1st Egyptian king in the 18 dynasty. Joseph made arrangement to live in Goshen, not as slaves.

    Ahmose (1539-1512) was the one responsible for the final expulsion of the Hyksos. His reign make no mention of taking any Hebrew man (Joseph) as governor, no mention of 7-year's famine. He was driving out foreigners out of Egypt, not bringing them in, except as slaves.

    Your thread link Moses' Exodus with that of Hyksos' expulsion, but that not possible.

    Although, neither the Genesis, nor the Exodus, give any name to Egyptian kings, but Exodus 1:11 gives us a clue to which dynasty...if not which king....that the Exodus was set in. They were forced to work as slaves to build two cities - Pithom and Rameses.

    Now if we are to take the Exodus seriously (which I don't), there were no Egyptian kings named Ramses until the 19th dynasty (1292-1190). Which Ramses? I don't know.

    The Hyksos were ruling 15th dynasty (c. 1630–1521 BC). This is the reason why I don't believe in the Hyksos-Hebrew connection. The Hyksos maybe Semitic people, but from the biblical records, they are not Hebrews. It was Josephus who first made this connection, but I think it is more of propaganda than anything else.

    As to Moses, I had difficulty in calculating the time between Joseph's death to Moses' birth, or the beginning of his Exodus out of Egypt, so I don't know which 19th dynasty kings ruled during Moses' time.

    There is only one mention of Israel in the 19th dynasty Egypt, in the stelae that commemorated victories of Merneptah (1213-1204 BCE). One of these victories, it was mentioned that he defeated Israel. Was Israel in Canaan at the time? Or were the Israelites wandering in the wilderness still? If the Israelites were living in Canaan, then the book of Judges make no mention of this defeat.

    It is also strange that Egypt was in control of Canaan in the 13th century, but almost nothing is mention of the Hebrews or Israelites, except that one mention in Merneptah's stela. Around this century, Egypt and the Hittites were contending against each other over Canaan.

    So I was hoping that someone here, can provide me with some information on the timeline.
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,855
    Ratings:
    +10,212
    Religion:
    Judaism
    ... perhaps because you don't recall any history.
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,855
    Ratings:
    +10,212
    Religion:
    Judaism
    <yawn> ... </yawn>
    <yawn> ... </yawn>
    Who cares. You are demonstrably ignorant on the topic.
     
  16. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,129
    Ratings:
    +38
    Sounds of a beaten religious fanatic...... Go read your book and follow your good news instead of being a hypocrite..... You had not posted anything relevant or to explain your side.. just personal attacks... are you related to any of the people who headed the spanish inquisition or the salem witch hunts or the religious fanatics who penalized astronomers?
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,855
    Ratings:
    +10,212
    Religion:
    Judaism
    :biglaugh: ProfLogic, ... oh, never mind. :biglaugh:
     
  18. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,948
    Ratings:
    +600
    Religion:
    LDS
    Apparently doesn't read RF much more than anything else :biglaugh:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,948
    Ratings:
    +600
    Religion:
    LDS
    To be fair - you haven't "posted anything relevant or to explain your side" either.
     
  20. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,129
    Ratings:
    +38
    I have noted that in Egyptian history there was only one major migration known.. it was the Hyksos, now in Exodus a race migrated also from Egypt the Ancient Hebrews. Now what is not relevant in that statement? Human mentality to keep their group together after a defeat needs to boost their group's morale either by fear or by reward. If there is a defeated group I don't see how they would have any richness to bribe the people to stay with them. Now fear as used in the OT... follow it and its commandments or you will be punished... The one god mentality that defeats anything can be used to manipulate people in staying? More than likely most of them were uneducated and believe ever word. Nowadays people can thing for themselves.

    Now tell me what irrelevant or show me another documented great migration from Egypt besides the Hyksos that did not come from the bible?
     
Loading...