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Could someone please explain the trinity?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by ThisShouldMakeSense, May 7, 2005.

  1. jimbob

    jimbob The Celt

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    i used to have a clover as my avatar, which was explained by St. Patrick. the Holy Trinity is three persons in one, just like there are three leaves in a clover. they are all unique, but single, like three leaves, that make one leaf.
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    TSMS,

    You can look at the Ten Commandments... I have it on good authority we only have two nowadays.

    1) Love God
    2) Love EVERYONE else

    Everything else is just details. :D

    As for "God's true Identity"... he has told us already. He "is". Nothing more and nothing less. The rest is (you guessed it): just details.

    Will Rogers put it best: It's not the things in the Bible that I don't understand that disturb me."
     
  3. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Hi NetDoc,

    yes, you are right about the two new commandments. but remember that those two encompass the pricipals of the mosaic law. ie, if you loved you neighbor, you wouldn't steal, envy, lie, murder, fornicate etc. same goes for loving God, you wouldn't blaspheme, worship Idols or other Gods (which is what the trinity is), lie, etc, either.

    And remember too, the scripture says that God never changes. so the point about the commandment that says 'I am the LORD (or YHWH)...you should have no other god's before me.' etc, is that he wan't us to worship him alone, know who he is, what his purpose is, what we are here for etc, etc...

    besides, the scripture says to love God with all you have, your whole mind, soul and strength etc. How can we do that if we direct it to someone else, be that jesus, the virgin mary, or anyone or anything else.
    God is a title, like Doctor or Teacher. if you had a room full of god's and you shouted out 'God!', how many would turn around to you? if you had the specific name of God, you'd get somewhere, wouldn't you?

    And, isn't it true that the finner things or details in life are what make life enjoyable? so i don't think your case can stand by sweeping the rest of the scriptures away as 'just details'. All scripture is inspired of God. you have to take it all incontext with the rest. don't be lukewarm, or you will be vomited out...
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    John 10:24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? 35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. NIV
     
  5. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jesus was saying that he is the son of God. And it had already been written that we are all sons (and daughters) of God. I am one with God, this does not make me a deity. Nor did it make Jesus a God.
     
  6. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    thanks enhanced spirit! My point exactly. like i said, married people are called one flesh, but that doesn't make them one person. and besides, if he was God, he'd be contradicting himself by everything else he went on to say after that.
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I would like to point out, that y'all are now arguing with the Scriptures... not me.

    Jesus said "I and the Father are one."

    He didn't say "You and the Father are one."

    He did say the only way to the Father was through________________. (Fill in the blank)

    He said repeatedly that to believe in __________ was to believe in the Father. (Fill in the blank)

    He also contended that if you accept __________ you have also accepted the Father. (FIll in the blank)

    BTW, those were really trick questions: they all have identical answers. I hope that didn't throw you! :D
     
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  8. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Then what does, this mean.
    Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? 35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

    And how about this one?
    Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

    And this one?
    Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
     
  9. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You are the one arguing with the scriptures... I think it means just what it says. What do YOU think it means? Do you think that this invalidates John 10:30??? There seems to be no equivocation in that statement.
     
  10. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Hi netdoc
    But he did say that he hoped that he and his deciples become one, just as he is one with his father...
     
  11. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I am not arguing with the scripture, but clarifying it. Just like Jesus tried to clarify the scripture for the Jews. I am not fighting what the bible says, I'm am arguing against the mis-interpretations.

    Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

    Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

    Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    MArk 10:45... Great scripture. This does not indicate the divinity of Jesus one way or the other.

    Matthew 19:16 Jesus is actually making the point that he IS God.

    Matthew 19:28, Again this does not address the divinity of Jesus.

    Let's see how God and Jesus define themselves:

    Exodus 3:14. God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'" NIV

    John 8:56. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
    57. "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
    58. "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
    59. At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
    NIV

    But some people are used to arguing with sign posts, why shouldn't they also argue with scripture?
     
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  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I guess that's why they wanted to stone him then!

    Those guys should have read it the way you do... but I guess they didn't. Whoa, but they were THERE. This statement was offensive to them, for Jesus claimed to be the "I AM".
     
  14. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Actually, in many other translations it reads 'i have been', 'i was', simply that he existed prior to that. also, it's not in capitol letters.​
     
  15. Seconde

    Seconde Member

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    Equal in power? If Jesus wasn't omnipresent, then that should mean neither is the father.

    Same substance? As in made of the same thing? Does that mean the father is made of complex carbohydrates, etc?
     
  16. z|x

    z|x New Member

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    The trinity is like a family. A father, mother and son. They can be called differently but they can also be called by their surname ie all of them can be called by the same name as well as different names at the same time. They can do different things.
     
  17. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria Active Member

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    The thing is that when you do that, you are affirming that these people are in need of humbling because they are being what some would call a pompous (censored). Therefore people who don't think of themselves as being too pridefull may take offense to this statement.



    Hmmmmmm.Just in case you wanted to know I would've answered that neither of them have an age since neither of them have a beginning(John 8-58). As far as knowing the same thing goes, I would've stated yes and my reasoning would've been that while Jesus did not know the time of His return in Mark 13:32, that could be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil.2:7) and after His resurrection He does not include himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).They are not the same person. If they were, it would not be by definition a trinity, but rather a unity manifested in three different ways. On top of that, if they were the same person, then why would they manifest themselves as three distinct "persons" in Matt.3:16-17? They are not "co-equal" (depending on how you are defining that term) being as how Jesus is subordinate relationally (1 Cor.11;3;15:28) but not in essence (John 10:30). As far as none "higher or better than the other" goes, I would have to ask what exactly you mean by that. To "basically one", I would answer essentially one.




    So, If Jesus is not God and just the image of the invisible God as you say , then what, exactly, is it supposed to mean by using the term "image of the invisible God"? As far as being the "firstborn of every creature goes", Since He is presented as the Son and principle heir of the Father in verses 12-14, the term "firstborn" is, in context, meaning "heir" (Gen.43:33; 48:14-20; Ex.4:22; 1Chron.5:1-3; Psa.89:27; Jer.31:9). It should also be noted that Col.1:16 speaks of Jesus as the creator rather than creature.




    And yet, He prayed that the Father would glorify Him with that same glory (John 17:1,5).




    Do you know of any other human being in the Bible that could honestly make or made that claim? All that is is an affirmation that Jesus was at least one with the father in will.




    The point is that Jesus had taken on the likeness of of a man (Col.2:7; Rom 8:3; 1Tim.3:16; John 1:14) and therefore had to deal with issues that men had to deal with like temptation, etc. With that being noted, Let me turn the question back on you.If Jesus was just a mere man, what was the point of emphasizing the fact that he was tempted (Matt.4; Mark1:12; Luke 4, Heb. 2:18) since we already know that all men are tempted?



    it's called "omnipressence":

    *** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
    Omnipresence n.


    Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or
    universal presence; ubiquity.
    [1913 Webster]

    And the basis for it can be found in Ps.139:7-10.

     
  18. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    (All paragraphs in inverted comas are quoting SoliDeoGloria)

     
  19. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    That which is known as the Godhead is first seen in Genesis1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

    Jesus, the man, was in tune with God from the moment of his birth. This is something all the rest of us have to come to on our own. We are given the choice of finding enlightenment. We have the choice to remain as animals, just here to survive our stay on earth, or to become enlightened beings. But we are all God's children. The Trinity is a way to describe God in a way that is condusive to our experience. The misconception is that Jesus(of the body) is himself a God, instead of 'made in the image of God' just like us.
    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
     
  20. timeguest

    timeguest New Member

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    John 5-7 "In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word was God . The Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us." John states these three are one. The Word that was with God was God and the Word became flesh. Jesus prayed to be glorified with the Glory he had with the Father in the beginning before the World was. The Word that was made flesh was glorified in the Spirit. The Holy Ghost is the Glorified Word of the Father. These three are one expression of the Glory of God.
     
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