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Could someone explain these verses to me?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Jaymes, Mar 26, 2005.

  1. Jaymes

    Jaymes The cake is a lie

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    "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."

    Matthew 10:34 - 39

    Could someone explain the bolded part? I thought Jesus was a pacifist?
     
  2. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Yes :).

    Christ demands absolute obedience from His followers. I can't follow Him with the qualification that I can follow someone else when convenience comes.

    This absolute obedience can, and will, bring conflict. It means, for instance, that I cannot pray be led in prayer by others. Recognizing Christ also leads to conflicts in families where there are mixed religions. On account of this, in the Roman Empire, daughters would deliver up their mother-in-laws to die, and sons their fathers. The same thing holds true in places where Christianity is in a semi-legal or illegal status.

    To use another claim of Christ, He is a stumbling block, and He will make people stumble and so on. In the end, He came to deliver this message and enable this conflict, and thus, the sword will come on some people. It doesn't allow for a nice, completely peaceful world.

    What He is not calling for is for His disciples to kill people in His name. He was talking about them getting killed. It isn't justification for Crusades.
     
  3. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    Most gladly shall I give you an answer, having lived it first hand.Luke 21:16-18 is also a discription of what happens. The consequenses are more severe in nations like Pakistan, Afganistan, Iran, You know where Islam is in control of the government. Also nations like China, N.Korea, Soingapore The Philipines , All nations where only one form of religion is accepted. Now my only problem was hatred for what I become by accepting a form of Christianity that was foreign to that which I was born and raised. Also Daniel 11:32-35 but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that do understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they fall they shall be holpen with little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall to try them and to purge and to make them white even to the time of the end:
    That person in the center of the controversy is what God is after to adorn with the power of the Highest to give him a glimpse of the Greatness of his Kingdom and power. That he may use it to conquer the nations. It is written "Ask of of me and I will give you the heathen for thine inheritance and the nations of the earth for thy possesion."
    This person has identified himself with the living God in Christ Jesus. When the Jews ( the apostles and their following) stepped out and followed Jesus they were eventually driven out by their own (flesh and blood) nation. Isreal the (Jews that is that rejected Jesus) continued their own path and was hammered by the Romans. But before that happened they drove the(((Christians (Jewish)))) out. Now in every society and in every culture where ever Jesus is introduced those who accept him are ostrasized. Even when in our "christian" nation one takes a greater advance into the Kingdom of God his own family and friends may resent it because they are satisfied with just to church and sleeping for half an hour. These are the types who for pretense rise up to explain their religious heritage in the constitution, make a big noise about prayer in public schools should be re-established, they want a president who will reflect their Judeo-christian ethic, they would establish a law to forbid abortion rather than take time on Sundays to pray for the nation for fifteen minutes and ask the living God to establish in the heart of young mothers and those who would have an abortion to change their mind and heart. They express their confidence in government, but not in the Living God who liveth and abideth for ever, who changeth not. They want God in the government but not in them, because they do not believe. Instead they stand out side with signs calling the removal of the tube from Terry Schivao murder. But have not even asked the living God to restore her to complete health, because they do not believe, (it).
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Hey Jensa...

    What's the first thing that people complaign about Christianity?

    You guys are condemning me to hell !?!

    You can't get someone to crawl into the life boat until they see that they are indeed in danger. Unfortunately, the communication of this belief to others seems to bring out the worst in people. "You're judging me!" is a typcal response. But we are not the ones doing the judging. We are merely trying to get them in the life boat!

    As an exercise, think about all of the people who died in the Titanic... many were BEGGING for the life boats to come pick them up. They saw their peril. But tell someone who doesn't see that peril that they are dead if they don't repent and climb right in, and you will anger them to the extreme.
     
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  5. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Jesus was a pacifist? Go to the scriptures where Jesus cleared the temple in a rage and whipped the merchants there.

    John 2:14-17
    And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
     
  6. Jaymes

    Jaymes The cake is a lie

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    How can people reconcile Jesus whipping people with him also preaching to turn the other cheek?
     
  7. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Jesus was just in what he did- his wrath was deserved. No one hit him though- he didn't retaliate because someone hit him- it wasn't in vengeance. God says vengeance is his alone. Not ours- but this doesn't make Jesus a pacifist.

    Regarding your scripture portion- can't you see that the Bible has created divisions in humanity? Look at those who can't stand the fundamentalists- and how some must twist the Bible to suit what they believe. In the end times, when it becomes illegal to worship Christ some will turn in their own relatives to the authorities. The Bible is called a two- edged sword. For the child of God ( a saved man that seeks to do his will) God's word is a great hope. For the lost man, or the saved man who constantly fights the holy spirit- it is judgement. The lost man is condemned because he is a Christ rejector and Jesus says that "no one cometh unto the father but by me." The saved man who fights God's will in his life will be convicted of the holy spirit and is miserable when he continues to defy God's will for him. He will be rewarded for his actions. If you disagree with what I have just said, then you can truly see how Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword. His word divides humanity.

    In order to understand Jesus though, you must accept that he is GOD. Look at God's work in the old testament- this was Jesus pre-incarnation. He lead the nation Israel in a conquering of many peoples. This is hardly pacifist.
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    What's to justify? Jesus taught us to accept abuse from others. He never taught us to not stand up for God.
     
  9. Jaymes

    Jaymes The cake is a lie

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    That statement greatly saddens me, as the worst thing I believe the Bible can be used as is a weapon. :(

    I just can't reconcile him teaching to turn the other cheek then beating the crap out of people in the temple. I don't believe someone can say "be a pacifist until such and such."
     
  10. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    That's a good question, and it's not an easy one :).

    This kind of shows the flaw in the complete pacifist view of Christ. In Christian believe, the Jesus who turned the other cheek is also the God who ordered the genocide on the Midianites, albeit it's an extereme example.

    I tend to approach it this way. Christ taught us meekness in dealing with others and to win with non-resistance. However, Christ also didn't tolerate people deviating from His teachings (and to us He is the One Who wrote the Law). In almost every case where Jesus goes off on someone, we see hypocritical leaders, misinterpretations of His Word, or something like that. This is the case in every instance except the fig tree, and that wasn't directed towards a person.

    However, Jesus taught absolute passiveness to those who would abuse us. To submit to government well-nigh unconditionally. In the "turn the other cheek" passage, Roman soliders could, and did, do much of that. They could compel people to carry their gear. Jesus demanded that the people, instead of resist, carry the gear two miles. He also emphasized when the evil man attacks, don't resist, as you well know.

    So, basically, Christ taught passivity in every area except the defense of the faith. In that area, where the faith was abused, He was very aggressive. He dressed down "hypocrites" with extrodinarily harsh language and in the instance you cited drove people away with whips.

    He's simply a complex character. I hope that answered your questions on that one. I have a good bit of trouble understanding it myself. :eek:
     
  11. precept

    precept Member

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    God sacrificed "God" to ramsom sinful, evil humans. As a consequence, sinful, evil humans' ONLY option is to do as God says if sinful, evil humans choose to embrace redemption.

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"; Paul says; but against Principalities; against powers; against the rulers of darkness."

    The above described "dark powers" will oppose everything that is godly and true. These powers will even counterfeit the Truth, making falsehood appear Truth. When God's True believer oppose these falsehoods; then the minions serving the "rulers of darkness", make God's true believers objects of ridicule, classifying God's true believers as heretics; and imprisoning, torturing, and killing God's true believers using the most atrocious, horrible means available.
    The minions of the "rulers of darkness" hunt God's true believers like animals; and God's true believers run to the hills as they hide from their relentless pursuers.

    It is to those who are caught between obeying the "rulers of darkness" and obeying God's truth, that Jesus addresses the words...."He that loveth father or mother, brother or sister more than me is not worthy of me." In other words those who knowingly or ignorantly work for the "rulers of darkness" will try to force the true believers of God to accept falsehood for truth. These "workers of darkness" are to be opposed; no matter the cost. Truth cannot be compromised! And must be defended to the death! These are the marching orders as obeyed by the disciples of Christ; As were obeyed by the Christians in the middle ages "who loved not their lives unto death"...and as will be obeyed by all True believers in Christ.


    An important point must be made to dispel the myth of one religion or another claiming to represent the true religion being described as the one being persecuted for Christ's sake. These types of religions can be represented as those religions that are intolerant of another's religion and will kill to establish the dominant triumphant religion.

    An example of two such religions are the Roman Catholic church and the Protestant church of the middle ages. These two false representatives of God; tortured and killed hundred of thousands of the devotees of each other. This TWO HORNED MONSTER was seen for real in Europe and more particularly in England where different regimes wreacked havoc, by wantonly killing "protestants" when a Roman Catholic monarch reigned such as "Bloody Mary" ; and the Protestant monarch returning the favor and wantonly killing Roman Catholics when Protestants reigned.

    These false representatives of God's true church did not die for the cause of Christ. They represent those who "give their bodies to be burned"...but for which there was no redeeming profit....They died in vain for the cause of Christ! 1 Corinthians chapter 13.

    The sword used by the true believers of God is His "Holy Word". God's word is so sharp it divides asunder body and soul. God's true believers are in no need of man made weapons of wrath. And hence God's true believers suffer gladly being persecuted; they suffer gladly when they are betrayed by their own; and like their Master suffer gladly to the death!

    God's marching orders are as true today as when spoken from His holy mouth two thousands of years ago. "He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me".


    precept
     
  12. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    very true
     
  13. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household.


    It essentially means that Jesus is more important than anything.
    That if even your family should disagree with what he says or asks you to do you should be against them and argue/work for him.

    I believe the mention of "sword" here equates with Gods word but I could be wrong.
    I don`t think he means a literal sword.


     
  14. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    I hope this comes out the way I mean it to...as a child I was taught that the Bible was the sword of truth. That in it could be found the answers to any of life's difficulties therefore it was called a sword in a Christians fight against evil in their lives. That didn't make it a literal sword as linwood pointed out.

    As for Jesus wipping someone when He drove them out of the temple...I don't remember ever hearing that He struck anyone just threatened is my recollection...can anyone tell me where it says He actually struck someone?

    As for the original question I agree with No*s and NetDoc.:)
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    It is spring, and Jesus and his disciples are on their way to Jerusalem to attend the Passover of 30 C.E. While there, his disciples see something about Jesus that they have perhaps not seen before.​

    According to God’s Law, Israelites are required to make animal sacrifices. So, for their convenience, merchants in Jerusalem sell animals or birds for this purpose. But they are selling right inside the temple, and they are cheating the people by charging them too much.​

    Filled with indignation, Jesus makes a whip of ropes and drives the sellers out. He pours out the coins of the money changers and overturns their tables. "Take these things away from here!" he cries out to those selling the doves. "Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!"​

    When Jesus’ disciples see this, they remember the prophecy about God’s Son: "The zeal for your house will eat me up." But the Jews ask: "What sign have you to show us, since you are doing these things?" Jesus answers: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."​

    The Jews assume that Jesus is talking about the literal temple, and so they ask: "This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?" However, Jesus is talking about the temple of his body. And three years later, his disciples remember this saying of his when he is raised from the dead. John 2:12-22; Matthew 13:55; Luke 4:23

     
  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Whoa, Jesus Christ never touched any of those merchants. He just pointedly told them to get out. He did overthrow their tables and seats and drove the animals out. He had a big problem with those animals being inside the temple because they were crippled animals for offerings to the Lord which is complete contradiction to the Word of God which is very specific that only the best animals were to be offered. The man came in and cleaned the Temple to be properly prepared for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That's the big picture.

    Do agree that John 2:15 kinda sucks. "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all [this is actually the sheep and oxen, all] out of the temple, and ["and" right here could/should be "both", makes sense] the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, [Jesus is in the temple still and speaking to the merchants, the same merchants traditionally thought to have been driven off with the sheep and oxen, but now Jesus is having dialoge with them in the temple] "Take these things [he's looking at the polluted bread, I added this myself]; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."

    I won't say that Jesus Christ has never gave anyone a beat down. Remember that verse that says the people took him up to a high cliff to cast him off to kill him. They get to the cliff and all that is written is he walked through the midst of them. Another verse suggest that all the books in the world can not contain all works of Christ. I'm sure he can throw a good cross hook.
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    From what I have been able to 'find out' about this apparent anomaly, it sounds like Jesus whipped the 'tables' to trash them, and scatter the money, overturned them, and chased the money lenders from the temple.:)
     
  18. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind anyone read that series? Anyways, the Word of God is a two-edged sword that cuts asunder.
     
  19. Natural Submission

    Natural Submission Active Member

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    The Bible is clear. Just because the modern day belief looks at Jesus as a flower child, doesn't make it so. He said what he said and he said it plainly. There is no hidden or ambiguous meaning to this.

    i too am a pacifist, as i oppose war and bloodshed. But if driven to necessity i will go to war for the sake of truth to protect the innocent. Jesus certainly didn't propagate warfare, but this doesn't mean he was against it.
     
  20. Prima

    Prima Well-Known Member

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    Disagreement isn't warfare! Jesus hated war and the pain it caused. What he is saying here is that those who follow him will not be accepted, and that they will be tormented because of their beliefs. I think he is saying this for those who are convinced that as soon as they accept Jesus everything will be peaceful and easy for them. Jesus is saying that many people will not accept his converts. He's not promoting war, he's saying that life will not be automatically easy once he comes.
     
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