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Could some RC please explain this?

I have been reading about the writings of Josephus, Philo, Papias, and Eusibius. All of them and other secular writers around the time of Jesus and the Apostles refer to Jesus having siblings. There are arguments if they were Mary's children or not, but my question arises nevertheless:

What is so bad about the idea that Mary may not have been a perpetual virgin?

I have never understood the vehemance of defending this point. What is so important about Mary being a perpetual virgin? Would raising children that live holy throughout their lives make her much more holier than not having children at all? Especially if her grandchildren live holy lives as well? A holy family such as this one would have more influence than just one virgin woman wouldnt it?

Could someone explain why Mary is holiest as a childless (exempting Jesus) woman instead of being a mother to a holy family? Origen and Tertullian dont shed much light on just why Mary should be a perpetual virgen. I know the idea has developed over the centuries, but what is so important about her virginity?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Wasn't James Christ's brother? I don't see a problem with Christ having siblings. It never occured to me that Mary was a virgin her entire life. She was married to Joseph wasn't she?
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
I agree with Johnny, I know Jesus had step-siblings/half-siblings, but I don't know where I read it. :(
 

spacemonkey

Pneumatic Spiritualist
jonny said:
Wasn't James Christ's brother? I don't see a problem with Christ having siblings. It never occured to me that Mary was a virgin her entire life. She was married to Joseph wasn't she?
Actually, I belive it was Thomas, the Apostale who doubted Jesus's ressurection (Doubting Thomas), but they both may have been.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
It's not just RCs that believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. All Christians outside of the Protestant tradition (i.e. RCs, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) believe this. It is a part of Holy Tradition that has been believed by the Church from very early times and was not 'developed over the centuries'. From our point of view, and I can't speak for RCs on this, it is not important to defend this belief. We have not dogmatised it and I very much doubt many Orthodox would argue that it makes the Theotokos holier in some way, but it is part of Holy Tradition and so we continue to believe it. Victor has pointed you to the thread where we recently discussed the issue and hopefully that will answer your questions.

James
 
JamesThePersian said:
It's not just RCs that believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. All Christians outside of the Protestant tradition (i.e. RCs, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) believe this. It is a part of Holy Tradition that has been believed by the Church from very early times and was not 'developed over the centuries'. From our point of view, and I can't speak for RCs on this, it is not important to defend this belief. We have not dogmatised it and I very much doubt many Orthodox would argue that it makes the Theotokos holier in some way, but it is part of Holy Tradition and so we continue to believe it. Victor has pointed you to the thread where we recently discussed the issue and hopefully that will answer your questions.

James
Very true James. They just dont come to my mind as quickly as RCs do. RCs seems the loudest with their beliefs right now (good for you. someone needs to be loud about morality).

Thanks for the link, Victor. I really need to remember that "hidden" Search function.

The actual evidence for and against Mary's perpetual virginity are pretty much equal. This is apparently up to our choice. Each individual is, afterall, a part of the instituation of the Church. (Acts 2) Really though, now that I think of it, the entire questioning around Mary's sexuality is moot. We cannot know for certain (faith can know but faith is rarely historically certain with details) nor is knowing that important.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Searcher of Light said:
Very true James. They just dont come to my mind as quickly as RCs do. RCs seems the loudest with their beliefs right now (good for you. someone needs to be loud about morality).

Thanks for the link, Victor. I really need to remember that "hidden" Search function.

The actual evidence for and against Mary's perpetual virginity are pretty much equal. This is apparently up to our choice. Each individual is, afterall, a part of the instituation of the Church. (Acts 2) Really though, now that I think of it, the entire questioning around Mary's sexuality is moot. We cannot know for certain (faith can know but faith is rarely historically certain with details) nor is knowing that important.
I'm Orthodox, not RC, but I think we're just as vocal about our moral position as the RCs. It's just that in the west we are a much smaller minority than RCs are even in predominantly Protestant countries, so we don't often make so much of a noticeable impact.

I would disagree with you that the evidence for and against the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos is equal (there is absolutely no evidence against the belief in the Bible, which is all most Protestants can appeal to, and a small bit of evidence for and, if you accept Holy Tradition, the evidence for the belief is almost overwhelming). I would agree with you, though, that it is not an important point but rather a matter of personal faith.

James
 
I'm Orthodox, not RC, but I think we're just as vocal about our moral position as the RCs. It's just that in the west we are a much smaller minority than RCs are even in predominantly Protestant countries, so we don't often make so much of a noticeable impact.
That would explain why the RCs seem more vocal to me than Orthodox or like faiths :)
 
Sex was something that was considered too base at one time to create anything good, remember woman was cursed by God to bear children. To create God in flesh, the animal instinct had to be ruled out. It is what puts us here, in flesh. Also, God nature comes through a multitude of forms, is not ruled by man. At the core, all nature is sacred. A virgin birth points to the mystical connection between flesh and God consciousness.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
John Eastern said:
Sex was something that was considered too base at one time to create anything good, remember woman was cursed by God to bear children. To create God in flesh, the animal instinct had to be ruled out. It is what puts us here, in flesh. Also, God nature comes through a multitude of forms, is not ruled by man. At the core, all nature is sacred. A virgin birth points to the mystical connection between flesh and God consciousness.
From what I have read, it appears that it was not until Augustine (354-430 A.D.) taught it that sex was considered evil. It wasn't until he promoted the idea that salvation was possible only through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, that this became commonly believed by Christians. If I'm wrong, and there is evidence that these things were considered doctrinal earlier than the 4th century or so, perhaps someone can provide me with it.
 
Katzpur said:
From what I have read, it appears that it was not until Augustine (354-430 A.D.) taught it that sex was considered evil. It wasn't until he promoted the idea that salvation was possible only through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, that this became commonly believed by Christians. If I'm wrong, and there is evidence that these things were considered doctrinal earlier than the 4th century or so, perhaps someone can provide me with it.
I don't know, I'd have to think about it some more. But in terms of the living Christ within, I try to apply the myth directly, bearing with the forced social emphasis to deny the truth outwardly.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
THE DOCTRINE



In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.

". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor. Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary


This tract appeared about A.D. 383, when both Jerome and Helvidius were at Rome, and Damasus was Pope. (The only contemporary notice preserved of Helvidius is that by Jerome in the following pages.)

The question which gave occasion to it was whether the Mother of our Lord remained a Virgin after His birth. Helvidius maintained that the mention in the Gospels of the "sisters" and "brethren" of our Lord was proof that the Blessed Virgin had subsequent issue, and he supported his opinion by the writings of Tertullian and Victorinus. The outcome of his views was that virginity was ranked below matrimony.

Jerome vigorously takes the other side, and maintains against Helvidius three propositions:
  1. That Joseph was only putatively, not really, the husband of Mary.
  2. That the "brethren" of the Lord were his cousins, not his own brethren.
  3. That virginity is better than the married state.

1. The first of these occupies chapters 3-8. It turns upon the record in Matthew 1:18-25, and especially on the words, "Before they came together" (chapter 4), and "knew her not till" (5-8).

2. The second (9-17) turns upon the words "first-born son" (9, 10), which, Jerome argues, are applicable not only to the eldest of several, but also to an only son: and the mention of brothers and sisters, whom Jerome asserts to have been children of Mary the wife of Cleophas or Clopas (11-16); he appeals to many Church writers in support of this view (17). 3. In support of his preference of virginity to marriage, Jerome argues that not only Mary. but Joseph also remained in the virgin state (19); that, though marriage may sometimes be a holy estate, it presents great hindrances to prayer (20), and the teaching of Scripture is that the states of virginity and continency are more accordant with God's will than that of marriage (21, 22).

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm
 
Katzpur said:
From what I have read, it appears that it was not until Augustine (354-430 A.D.) taught it that sex was considered evil. It wasn't until he promoted the idea that salvation was possible only through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, that this became commonly believed by Christians. If I'm wrong, and there is evidence that these things were considered doctrinal earlier than the 4th century or so, perhaps someone can provide me with it.

Read Paul's Epistles, a very prudish dude and quite skittish about sex and the place of women. In the Catacombs of Rome there are frescoes that date back to the First Century with images of the Virgin with the Christ Child, this was a very powerful motif in the early Church. Many of these catacombs and frescoes predate the the Book of Revelation and certainly predate the compilation of the Bible itself.



<><
 
Then again, I don't think it is Augustine that has a problem with sex, just look at the OT gods:

David's son raped his sister and overthrew his father, slept with his father's wives. He was killed when David took back his kingdom but not by David. David's sin was forgiven, but since he slept with another man's wife in secret, another man (his son) would sleep with his wives in public. And because of this, the other man (his son) would be allowed to die.



;-)
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
jonny said:
Wasn't James Christ's brother? I don't see a problem with Christ having siblings. It never occured to me that Mary was a virgin her entire life. She was married to Joseph wasn't she?
james was jesus's brother, but i think he was his half-brother, from a past wife of joseph .......... i think that's what i read somewhere, ill do some digging

anyway, the idea stems from the original sin doctrine, and because jesus was born of a virgin, he has not inherited the original sin, allowing him to be pure and righteous from birth

at least, thats what i think the significance is - someone feel free to correct me:D
mike
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mike182 said:
james was jesus's brother, but i think he was his half-brother, from a past wife of joseph .......... i think that's what i read somewhere, ill do some digging

anyway, the idea stems from the original sin doctrine, and because jesus was born of a virgin, he has not inherited the original sin, allowing him to be pure and righteous from birth

at least, thats what i think the significance is - someone feel free to correct me:D
mike
Holy Tradition certainly points to the idea that James was Christ's half brother from a past wife of Joseph. This is what the vast majority of Orthodox believe, though some accept the cousins idea. Certainly, in Holy Tradition, Joseph was much older than Mary, they never consummated their marriage and Mary had no children but Christ. This is consistent with Scripture in that had Mary had a living husband or son they would have been expected to care for here and Christ would not have given her into the care of St. John.

The idea does not stem from the doctrine of Original Sin, though. That doctrine comes from Bl. Augustine and was only ever accepted in the west. The ever-virginity of the Theotokos long pre-dates Augustine and can be found, for instance, in the Protoevangelium of James. You appear to be projecting the modern (and it's only from the 19th century) RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception back in time to the early Church. The pre-Schism Church did not (and the Orthodox Church never has) accept either the Augustinian idea of Original Sin or the Immaculate Conception. The Theotokos was subject to the effects of the Ancestral Sin as all of us are, for she was mortal, but she was born as all of us are without sin. She was just the same as the rest of us except that she chose not to sin and was greatly blessed by God.

James
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
i rememberd where i read that james was jesus' half brother :D

it was the "anne rice" novel, which is very very well researched!
 
Some problems I have with the idea of the Virgin Mary is it tends to clash with cultural norms of the time. Its very likely that Jesus's brothers and sisters were just that. Its unlikely that Joseph would have married again if he was a widower and had sons and daughters. There would not have been much need to do so financially.

The only other problem I have with the adoration of Mary is just how close it seems to get to worship for some people.

I appreciate and respect the stance of those who believe in Mary's perpetual virginity. I just dont believe it myself because it clashes with Jewish Law, Jewish tradition of the time and, to me at least, demeans the humanity of Mary as a mother of regular sons and daughters. The fact that the majority of those sons and daughters followed Jesus, as scripture alludes to, is a much louder testament to Mary's spirituality than her virginity or lack thereof.
 
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