Could Jesus have been wrong?

[Windwalker]

I'm asking this question to Christians, and others who might wish to reply. There are those of the Christian faith, most I tend to think, who would say Jesus knew everything there was to know because he was the Son of God. But it is possible someone could recognize that he was in fact ignorant of a great many things, wrong in a lot of cases, yet it not diminish his standing as a spiritual teacher, or to be called the Son of God? Is in necessary for the Enlightened ones to be beyond anything earthly, like making mistakes?

Let me expand that a little to say must he have not had any flaws? No personality quirks? No fearful responses? No anger? Not hurting others through his own processes of figuring out who he was as a person? No errors he later corrected on a path of growth, like any one of us? Did he somehow escape all that? Was he "perfect" beyond any and all human struggles? Is this how you see Jesus? Please share.

I'm curious to hear mostly Christians reply to this, but others are welcome as well.

 

[idav]

I don't think it would be safe to say wrong in "a lot of cases". There are very rare cases where Jesus lets his bias get the better of him. Even in the case where he refers to a woman as a dog, he is going beyond the bias of his followers by even helping the lady.
Matthew 15:26
Although maybe he knew he was wrong, on purpose perhaps, cause she seemed to win the argument. It may be a lesson to teach Jews about being "chosen".
Matthew 15:28

Jesus also had bias about trees not baring fruit but thats where it really appears to me that the stories and miracles are wholly allegorical to greater truths.
Matthew 21:19

Anything else I can think of was well beyond Jesus's time, showing compassion and forgiveness that his own followers had a hard time with in many instances.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't think it would be safe to say wrong in "a lot of cases". There are very rare cases where Jesus lets his bias get the better of him.

Would it be less than the rest of us? Is it very rare cases for us?

Anything else I can think of was well beyond Jesus's time, showing compassion and forgiveness that his own followers had a hard time with in many instances.

I'm of the view that compassion is something that we have to come to through struggle to truly embrace in its Beauty. Did Jesus bypass this path in his way to find it in himself? Was he just born that way, or was it something he had to come to in himself through struggle, through encountering indifference in himself, like the rest of us?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

A little left field, but if Jesus was trying to convince others and gain followers, it's always possible some of his words and actions were framed in ways familiar to them, rather than based on his own thoughts and knowledge.

 

[Windwalker]

A little left field, but if Jesus was trying to convince others and gain followers, it's always possible some of his words and actions were framed in ways familiar to them, rather than based on his own thoughts and knowledge.

An interesting thought. I don't actually doubt he used the language and understanding of others, such as referring to Adam and Eve as actual people, in order to teach a greater lesson. But I don't think it's because he knew about evolution and was simply using what they would have understood, while he himself had advanced scientific knowledge a couple millennia or more beyond them. I believe he was genuinely ignorant himself. But his message simply used the conventions of the myths of his day, like any one of us do!

And in that ignorance, would his status be diminished as a great teacher and or an inspired soul, one with God? I'm really after can a Christian be fine with Jesus' fallibility, fallible like the rest of us, making mistakes, being wrong, not being perfect?

 

[idav]

Would it be less than the rest of us? Is it very rare cases for us?

It was rare in those days. Lack of ignorance should be helping us these days.

I'm of the view that compassion is something that we have to come to through struggle to truly embrace in its Beauty. Did Jesus bypass this path in his way to find it in himself? Was he just born that way, or was it something he had to come to in himself through struggle, through encountering indifference in himself, like the rest of us?

Not sure because there are missing years. Though the stories have him as very wise as a young lad. However it does talk of him fasting for 40 days and being tempted which is similar to the temptations that Buddha faced before becoming enlightened.

For both Jesus and Buddha, the time leading up to their spiritual experiences, the Baptism and the Enlightenment, was a time of preparation and trial.
http://www.intu.org/lotus_4.html

 

[lewisnotmiller]

An interesting thought. I don't actually doubt he used the language and understanding of others, such as referring to Adam and Eve as actual people, in order to teach a greater lesson. But I don't think it's because he knew about evolution and was simply using what they would have understood, while he himself had advanced scientific knowledge a couple millennia or more beyond them. I believe he was genuinely ignorant himself.

And in that ignorance, would his status be diminished as a great teacher and or an inspired soul, one with God? I'm really after can a Christian be fine with Jesus' fallibility, fallible like the rest of us, making mistakes, being wrong, not being perfect?

Interesting topic. I'll leave it to the believers and just follow along at home for now.

 

[Neo Deist]

I'm asking this question to Christians, and others who might wish to reply. There are those of the Christian faith, most I tend to think, who would say Jesus knew everything there was to know because he was the Son of God. But it is possible someone could recognize that he was in fact ignorant of a great many things, wrong in a lot of cases, yet it not diminish his standing as a spiritual teacher, or to be called the Son of God? Is in necessary for the Enlightened ones to be beyond anything earthly, like making mistakes?

Let me expand that a little to say must he have not had any flaws? No personality quirks? No fearful responses? No anger? Not hurting others through his own processes of figuring out who he was as a person? Did he escape all that? Was he "perfect" beyond any and all human struggles? Is this how you see Jesus?

I'm curious to hear mostly Christians reply to this, but others are welcome as well.

Jesus was wrong on many occasions. He was, after all, only human.

 

[DawudTalut]

I'm asking this question to Christians, and others who might wish to reply. ........... Is in necessary for the Enlightened ones to be beyond anything earthly, like making mistakes?

........ but others are welcome as well.

Peace be on you.
Enlightened ones are selfless servants of God. They see with the light granted by God but they are not God. Sometimes they may interpret things which may turn out incorrect but God soon correct their errors and safe them and followers.....They are human afterall, that is why they always seek divine support and grace and covering.

 

[buddhist]

This was wrong: "a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown upon the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth" Mark 4:31 (RSV)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm asking this question to Christians, and others who might wish to reply. There are those of the Christian faith, most I tend to think, who would say Jesus knew everything there was to know because he was the Son of God. But it is possible someone could recognize that he was in fact ignorant of a great many things, wrong in a lot of cases, yet it not diminish his standing as a spiritual teacher, or to be called the Son of God? Is in necessary for the Enlightened ones to be beyond anything earthly, like making mistakes?

Let me expand that a little to say must he have not had any flaws? No personality quirks? No fearful responses? No anger? Not hurting others through his own processes of figuring out who he was as a person? No errors he later corrected on a path of growth, like any one of us? Did he somehow escape all that? Was he "perfect" beyond any and all human struggles? Is this how you see Jesus? Please share.

I'm curious to hear mostly Christians reply to this, but others are welcome as well.

Given you don't mind others reply* , I'll add my two cents.

Since I believe jesus is human, I do believe he has quirks etc just like the rest of us. He got angry at the Jews, Pharisee, and devil. If I told my friend to tell her parents that she didn't want to be with her parents because "she rather be in her father's house" knowing that her parents would worry about her, that would be a no-no. Yet, Jesus didn't see it that way. He had strong opinions about family. He said not to put mother, father, even himself over his father.

I don't feel he is wrong in his respect and belief; I just think people interpret his teachings wrong. For example, my friend justifies his anger as a "healthy" anger. I've never heard anyone have a healthy anger before. If you're mad at someone there is negatively about it regardless who does it.

Another thing about "being wrong" (or a contradiction) is that god forgives everyone but satan. If sacrifice is a huge importance, there shouldn't be any favoritism based on what people do. Everyone should deserve forgiveness.

Since Jesus doesn't give satan that forgiveness, I feel he is doing opposite than what I felt his sacrifice was for. It wasn't a sacrifice if you have favoritism.

Plus, what does a god-human do? I see Star Trek and Zues sitting on his thrown, but then he calls down Captin Kirk and his crew because he is bored and wants a woman mate.

Also, jeleousy is also a human flaw. How can a god (and jesus) be jeleous? I feel jesus is wrong in so many ways in regards to spirituality. I would compare it to The Buddha's teachings, but I don't think it's my place to do here. I would do it in religious debates or interfaith but I dont think many christians and even buddhists would compare their beliefs and let them be challenged.

As a former practicing christian, though, because I believe in the spirits, the spirits do not need to be flawless to learn from them. I don't understand why god/jesus need to be flawless in order to save humanity. I'd think that's the biggest key to why jesus would be "the guy" is because he is just like us. He isn't. That's the flaw in his message too.

 

[Windwalker]

For example, my friend justifies his anger as a "healthy" anger. I've never heard anyone have a healthy anger before. If you're mad at someone there is negatively about it regardless who does it.

Not to raise this point to challenge that Jesus did not sin by being angry, I think there are some misconceptions about anger you are expressing here. Being angry is sometimes very healthy and necessary. Negative emotions don't necessarily take you into bad directions. They can take you into positive ones. It's really where let yourself go with them that's good or bad.

Anger can lead you to take positive actions to correct wrongs. Anger can also be an important therapeutic release where it leads to breakthroughs and positive growth. It can smash through obstacles. Anger can be in fact guided by love, where anger and love are partners together for good. I think there is a great misconception about love and compassion that these mean being completely pacifistic, never getting angry or hurt by others actions, being some placid soul floating on the wind, walking on water with song birds landing on your shoulders.

And this is part of my point about the mythologization of spiritual teachers and leaders. To see Jesus as somehow elevated above and beyond things like anger is a reflection of our own lack of understanding of the nature of it. Many Christians "kick Jesus upstairs", making him "perfect", or "without sin", in all those things we don't like about ourselves or know how to handle, such as anger. So then to see this figure do any of these things, they might conclude he's not who they imagined he was and is not a good spiritual teacher then. Down they come off that pedestal and crash to the ground as a failed symbol of our own self-denials we turned them into.

To me the real point of growth begins to happen when we realize that these symbols of our own hopes for ourselves were in fact exactly like us, but they found a way to "overcome the world", so to speak. They found a way to be in balance, to live richly with all that they had to deal with in themselves. The "overcoming the world" is not some passing from flawed to flawless, which is how people view Jesus in their mythologizing of him, but rather to find how to understand how to work with our imperfections towards good, and not take them into destructive paths.

 

[savagewind]

I don't believe that the Jesus of scripture was one real person as described, so he wasn't perfect but he didn't have any character flaws either. I realize that saying so makes me a bad person according to many people, but really, what's the difference? I still consider myself "Christian", so what THEY think doesn't matter much to me. They will ignore me whether I be the best Christian ever or the worst one ever imho.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Windwalker

I don't agree with the anger part. The Bible does say even having sinful thoughts is a sin. I don't get angry. I was told depression and anxiety was anger turned inside out. Depression isn't healthy. It can cause one to think of suicide and if it were healthy, it wouldn't need to be treated. Anxiety can lead one to seizures and heart attacks. Anger can lead one to hurt others. It is unhealthy even if there is no action as a result of it. I don't know many people who feel good and healthy when they are angry.

As for spiritual growth, the Bible to many people is a source of it. I personally can't see myself spiritually growing using the Bible as my foundation. I agree in a general sense with you, though, with respect to that.



The anger point is just my reflection and opinion. Nothing more.

 

[Windwalker]

@Windwalker

I don't agree with the anger part. The Bible does say even having sinful thoughts is a sin. I don't get angry. I was told depression and anxiety was anger turned inside out. Depression isn't healthy. It can cause one to think of suicide and if it were healthy, it wouldn't need to be treated. Anxiety can lead one to seizures and heart attacks. Anger can lead one to hurt others. It is unhealthy even if there is no action as a result of it. I don't know many people who feel good and healthy when they are angry.

As for spiritual growth, the Bible to many people is a source of it. I personally can't see myself spiritually growing using the Bible as my foundation. I agree in a general sense with you, though, with respect to that.



The anger point is just my reflection and opinion. Nothing more.

I was pretty clear anger can be both a force for good and action in positive directions, or towards negative or destructive directions. You just described the latter. The mistake is to ignore the former.

What is "sin" actually, but simply falling short of the mark or the goal. If you are repressing anger because you think it's a sin, then it has a negative effect upon you creating all manner of diseases. That's the sin. That's falling short of the goal. You can take that anger instead and get angry at what you are doing to yourself. Get mad, and change what you are doing and get healthy.

You know I just had this funny insight. I think anger is a lot like sex. Our culture can have so many stigmas and make it "dirty" or something because it's such a powerful force in us. We do exactly the same thing about anger. Yet life comes from the sex drive. Powerful change comes when we've finally "had it" with something and make a positive change. It's just unfortunate how our culture's fear of these normal, natural, and healthy things twist them for us to deny our own humanity and create all these neurotic responses from our psyches, such as you described.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was pretty clear anger can be both a force for good and action in positive directions, or towards negative or destructive directions. You just described the latter. The mistake is to ignore the former.

What is "sin" actually, but simply falling short of the mark or the goal. If you are repressing anger because you think it's a sin, then it has a negative effect upon you creating all manner of diseases. That's the sin. That's falling short of the goal. You can take that anger instead and get angry at what you are doing to yourself. Get mad, and change what you are doing and get healthy.

You know I just had this funny insight. I think anger is a lot like sex. Our culture can have so many stigmas and make it "dirty" or something because it's such a powerful force in us. We do exactly the same thing about anger. Yet life comes from the sex drive. Powerful change comes when we've finally "had it" with something and make a positive change. It's just unfortunate how our culture's fear of these normal, natural, and healthy things twist them for us to deny our own humanity and create all these neurotic responses from our psyches, such as you described.

I guess you can see anger that way. If I didn't have depression and anxiety, I would never experience anger. I have too much openness for other people that expressing that is like my soul tearing up a human soul. Who deserves someone else to be angry at them? If I was angry at my friend, I don't think she'd say "oh, that's healthy. You can fuss at me all you want. It's cool." or if I compared it to depression and falling into it deeply (as anger is deper than just being mad) and the doctor says, "oh, that's okay. You're just depressed. It would lead to anything just go over there and think of suicide. It's healthy."

A lot of times we are mad or fustrated. Our bodies do that normal that is healthy. When we are anger, it's a step more. It's more means of misplaced actions. It's like setting the fire before the fire spreads. Fire (being mad) is normal. It happens in response to someone or something else we provoking (can't think of the right word) us. However anger does lead to misplaced answers just as thoughts of sin leads to sin.

I never heard someone get angry at say their abuser hitting them, and say "oh, that's normal. You can hit me all you want."

Anger is more like clenching your fist in frustration and with the motive to commit misplaced actions.

Being mad is probably a better word. It doesn't have a motivation or lead to like anger (depression, mania, panic) does.

 

[Windwalker]

I guess you can see anger that way. If I didn't have depression and anxiety, I would never experience anger.

But didn't you just say depression and anxiety is a result of anger turned inside out? I think you are mistaken that anger creates these things. Not dealing with your anger is what does. Simply having anger does not. I would say if you learned to face your anger issues and deal with them effectively, then you wouldn't be depressed. You probably still would experience anger however because that is a normal part of being a human being.

I have too much openness for other people that expressing that is like my soul tearing up a human soul.

I'll bet some of this is why you end up depressed, because you try to not express it when you should be. There is nothing wrong with expressing anger at someone --- when the goal is to correct a problem or situation that causes someone problems. If the expression of that anger is to harm the other, than that's not an appropriate response to anger. It's the responses that are good or bad, not the emotion itself.

Who deserves someone else to be angry at them?

Everyone deserves that at one point or another in their lives. It's what keeps us in check with one another to learn what others boundaries are to be mindful and respectful of those in an effort towards developing community and togetherness. These things are all the rough bits that make the whole more smooth. Adversity creates progress.

If I was angry at my friend, I don't think she'd say "oh, that's healthy.

Then she would be mistaken. She should encourage you to be honest about how you feel, even if it is your anger at her. It's for your good to get it out in the open, rather than repressing it, turning it inward and becoming anxious and depressed as a result. If she was your friend and understood this, she'd be willing to take you have to say to her through your anger because it would help you, and help the relationship.

A lot of times we are mad or fustrated. Our bodies do that normal that is healthy. When we are anger, it's a step more. It's more means of misplaced actions. It's like setting the fire before the fire spreads. Fire (being mad) is normal. It happens in response to someone or something else we provoking (can't think of the right word) us. However anger does lead to misplaced answers just as thoughts of sin leads to sin.

No, there is no difference between being mad and being anger. They are simply different words for the same emotion. Being angry is being mad. Being mad is being angry. What you should do instead is recognize that being angry can have different degrees of anger at play, and that to let it become a destructive forces is in fact a choice. You can choose to let that anger express itself destructively, or you can choose to the anger express itself constructively. Same emotion, different responses.

I never heard someone get angry at say their abuser hitting them, and say "oh, that's normal. You can hit me all you want."

Why in the hell should they? What they should do is get angry and tell them to get away from them and take steps to not allow them to treat them that way in the future. Getting angry in this case is reclaiming power for yourself that an abuser is wrongly taking from you. This is where getting angry can save you!

Anger is more like clenching your fist in frustration and with the motive to commit misplaced actions.

No, that's just violent action. That's one thing you can do with the anger you have. Or you can do something constructive with it instead if you make the right choice.

Being mad is probably a better word. It doesn't have a motivation or lead to like anger (depression, mania, panic) does.

Again, anger and mad are simply two words for the same thing. It's better to understand the types of anger, rather than labeling anger as "bad", when in fact its normal. What we choose to do with it either helps us, or harms us.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think I understand what youre saying. Its like a therapist telling his client to hit a pillow rather than repress the emotion. What Im getting at is that although it does help one to get their anger out, I dont find it a productive emotion thats healthy in and of itself. Maybe bad or wrong isnt a good word, but definitely unhealthy. If it were healthy, there would be no need to address it.

You probably still would experience anger however because that is a normal part of being a human being.

In the form of depression. Ive been raised to were anger could get me physically hurt. So, to me in that point of view anger would cause me harm and that is bad. I live on my own now, so its interesting to hear other perspectives. Its something I may address to my doctor.

It's the responses that are good or bad, not the emotion itself.

I can see that. Biblically (quick note) even bad thoughts are sinful. So, if I went off of that it wouls be a combination. Although I dont believe In the bible, I can see why that is true based on how I was raised.

Everyone deserves that at one point or another in their lives. It's what keeps us in check with one another to learn what others boundaries are to be mindful and respectful of those in an effort towards developing community and togetherness. These things are all the rough bits that make the whole more smooth. Adversity creates progress.

Id think, though, finding assertive ways to handle anger when we recognize it (since I feel its unhealthy/bad) would save confrontations and unknown reaction from the other party rather than "letting it go". I think there are more assertive ways to handle anger rather in front of people (which is why I feel its unhealthy) than not. Or even with oneself.

But, true, it can be a form of oppression. In ither cases its just knowing yourself and knowing if your anger "and" reactions will lead to misplaced actions. In my case its depression. My friend, on the other hand, its misplaced physical aggression. So, anger would not be healthy for her if she didnt know how to asserively address it when she feels it come on.

It's for your good to get it out in the open, rather than repressing it, turning it inward and becoming anxious and depressed as a result

Probably in fro t a therapist or alone but for some people put in the open leads to misplaced actions. I understand what you mean, though.

Being angry is being mad. Being mad is being angry.

Hm.

No, that's just violent action. That's one thing you can do with the anger you have. Or you can do something constructive with it instead if you make the right choice.

Some people anger and misplaced actions intermingle. Its not isolated. I think its more finding assertive ways to handle anger (like you said) but if it were healthy/not bad, there would be no need to address it.[/QUOTE]

 

[Windwalker]

I think I understand what youre saying. Its like a therapist telling his client to hit a pillow rather than repress the emotion.

That typically is to get you to acknowledge your anger rather than holding it back. It creates a "safe place" to let all that powerful emotion out that has been built up over the years of stuffing it down, creating a pool of rage. The goal however would be to then learn to deal with the anger issues as the come up in productive ways so you don't end up hurting yourself and your relationships in the future by letting it build up like that. The goal would be to allow yourself to recognize your anger at the time it happens, and find an appropriate way to deal with the problem at the time. That way, you're actually manging your behaviors as you expeirence anger, controlling how you act in response to it.

The bad part is when we let anger let us lose control. Once you have control of yourself with the emotion anger, then it can in fact be a powerful ally, helping you and everyone else as you stay healthy. Anger can lead to positive changes and not allowing things to build up.

If it were healthy, there would be no need to address it.

It's neither a healthy emotion or an unhealthy one. What we do with it is what is either healthy or unhealthy. I'm stating that trying to deny it to yourself is unhealthy because it leads one into things like depression, or it's ugly step-sister, passive-aggressiveness. Anger can be your friend too, if you learn how to manage the things you do with it. Viewing it in itself as the enemy, is to hate and deny part of the reality of who we are. And that, in my opinion, is what will send us into things like depression. We have to learn to love ourselves, and acknowledging and befriending our own areas we've shunted off into the corners to hide them away from us, is the beginning of genuinely living life free. It's the beginning of a true spirituality, in fact.

I can see that. Biblically (quick note) even bad thoughts are sinful. So, if I went off of that it wouls be a combination. Although I dont believe In the bible, I can see why that is true based on how I was raised.

There is indeed some truth in these things. However the thoughts are not sin in themselves, but our giving in and indulging into dark and negative patterns of thoughts is what leads us away into darkness. This much is very, very true. Negative thinking creates negative emotions in response to them, which emotion then leads us to believe in the thoughts because we are now experiencing them and experiences are real. We have to address our thought patterns and our habits with them, to be made consciously aware of them and recognize them and choose alternative paths to go when we see them happening. It's where we go with them that's sinful or not. Anything that leads us into depression is in fact us "falling short of the mark".

But there is no judgment, just seeing the truth of it in ourselves and getting a handle on our own thoughts. To quote the Buddha here, "More than those who hate you, more than all your enemies, an undisciplined mind does greater harm." Our own negativity patterns are a form of self-abuse we indulge in out of a form of self-loathing, greater than any enemy outside ourselves could do.

To reiterate, these are skills that you have to learn, but to come from where you are to there will take safe places to work on those things. The goal is not to just let it all fly out anywhere and everywhere smashing things and throwing heavy objects at people. The goal is to let your anger help keep you from harm, physically, emotionally, psychologically, relationally, and spiritually.

 

[rusra02]

Here is what the Bible says about Jesus:
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin." (Hebrews 4:14,15
"For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens." (Hebrews 7:26)
While Jesus was without sin, this does not mean he knew everything his Father knows. He said regarding the end of this wicked system: "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)
I also believe the suffering Jesus underwent during his ministry made him perfect or complete for his role as King and high priest. (Hebrews 2:10)