Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

[steeltoes]

How can you possibly say anything other than "I just don't know."?

That's just not an option for those in the know. There are those that know that Jesus existed and there are those that know that he didn't because opinions are like that, they vary.

 

[Amechania]

Who would have invented him and why? Whoever they were they took their lives in their hands by perpetuating this fraud, and for no apparent material benefit. Nobody got rich on Christianity until long after it had become a pervasive religion no longer punishable by death. The idea that the man himself was after wealth or fame seems to contradict everything he is purported to teach.

 

[Sees]

When was Christianity punishable by death?

Who would have invented him and why? Whoever they were they took their lives in their hands by perpetuating this fraud, and for no apparent material benefit. Nobody got rich on Christianity until long after it had become a pervasive religion no longer punishable by death. The idea that the man himself was after wealth or fame seems to contradict everything he is purported to teach.

 

[Amechania]

When was Christianity punishable by death?

Seriously?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Who would have invented him and why?

If I had to guess, I'd say that (the writer of) Mark invented him. He did so because stories about Jesus had been circulating around, and he wanted to write a story claiming that the godman had actually lived 30-40 years earlier in Jerusalem. It may have started as a fiction project and then sort of morphed into a real deal. People started believing it.

The reason it worked was because all other messiah claimants had been real, and people could point to their warts. But no one could point to any flaws in Jesus -- no more than someone could point out the flaws in Robin Hood.

Just my best guess.

Whoever they were they took their lives in their hands by perpetuating this fraud, and for no apparent material benefit.

It happens all the time. Constantly. See Joseph Smith. (Not saying he was a fraud -- just that people routinely risk their lives for religious beliefs, whether true or false.)

 

[Sees]

Seriously?

Yes

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

For me personally I don't think a Jesus ever existed, but I feel there has been a lot fraud in the stories written about this myth call Jesus.

That's my feeling on this matter, as well.

 

[outhouse]

When was Christianity punishable by death?

The first 300 years [ish]

 

[outhouse]

Who would have invented him and why? Whoever they were they took their lives in their hands by perpetuating this fraud, and for no apparent material benefit. Nobody got rich on Christianity until long after it had become a pervasive religion no longer punishable by death. The idea that the man himself was after wealth or fame seems to contradict everything he is purported to teach.

Exactly.


Why make one of your slaves the most important person in your society

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The first 300 years [ish]

Evidence?

Actually, that can't possibly be true since we have many writings of known Christians who were arguing with Pagans since the 2nd century.

 

[outhouse]

If I had to guess, I'd say that (the writer of) Mark invented him.

Except Mark was a compilation of written and oral traditions. You eluded to it, but provided no deatil.

Writen at a time when people could rememebr back to that Passover and refute his existance if it was fictional.


Whats funny is, no one back then really even questioned his existance, even his enemies didnt say he was fiction.

This Jesus myth stuff is for the most part a modern creation, since we see through thye mythology much better then ever before.



You also have to deal with Paul writing before Mark.

 

[Sees]

The first 300 years [ish]

I've never read about that outside of church vision of history...let alone when there would have been people who knew a real person - they were underground secret squirrel for 20 years at least?

 

[Amechania]

If I had to guess, I'd say that (the writer of) Mark invented him. He did so because stories about Jesus had been circulating around, and he wanted to write a story claiming that the godman had actually lived 30-40 years earlier in Jerusalem. It may have started as a fiction project and then sort of morphed into a real deal. People started believing it.

The reason it worked was because all other messiah claimants had been real, and people could point to their warts. But no one could point to any flaws in Jesus -- no more than someone could point out the flaws in Robin Hood.

Just my best guess.

Possible, except that according to Irenaeus: "After their departure [of Peter and Paul from earth], Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter."
This implies that the Pauline epistles may predate the Gospels so if anyone began the fiction project it would have likely been the well-educated Saul/Paul, rather than the author of Mark. But who really knows. You're point about Jesus being wart-free because he is fictional is a good one except that Jesus isn't wart-free: he was an inveterate sinner according to Jewish law.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Except Mark was a compilation of written and oral traditions.

OK. Then the writers of Mark, rather than the writer of Mark.

And how do you know there were oral traditions? Can you recite some of them?

Writen at a time when people could rememebr back to that Passover and refute his existance if it was fictional.
Whats funny is, no one back then really even questioned his existance, even his enemies didnt say he was fiction.

I'm sure lots of folks questioned and denied his existence, though the Jesus believers surely destroyed most all of those.

Anyway, your claim is easily disproven by the Bible itself. See 2nd John 1:7....I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world.

You also have to deal with Paul writing before Mark.

That one is passingly easy. Paul obviously didn't believe in a 30 CE Jesus. It wasn't until later that Mark claimed Jesus was 30 CE.

 

[Mycroft]

It's not an original thought, but it hit me. What if Christianity is an offbrand, created by a beggar who claimed to be God for fortune? Obviously Jesus did not reveal to want fortune, in fact was very selfless and appeared as wanting to bring fortune to all others.

This simply could be an example of a homeless man expressing communism, not raising his fortune, but taking the small fortune of others altogether, then fractioning it down into equal fortune, and thus him too was given fortune and rose to a common social class.

I am very appreciative of Jesus, but don't view him as the same entity as God or the Holy Spirit (except if you consider my view of the Holy Spirit interconnecting all with God, that Man is Christ blessed with the holy spirit, btw not Christian, my theology includes this too add to its complication). However rude the question may seem, I think God allows me to question with no disrespect, having suddenly getting a more positive and paradigm shifting perspective on Abrahamic (specifically Christian) theology. So, in no way is this meant to disrespect Jesus or spit on his holiness.

I think after Scientology and Mormonism, anything is possible.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Possible, except that according to Irenaeus: "After their departure [of Peter and Paul from earth], Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter."

Sure. And the current Pope probably makes the same claim. Lots of people have made that claim.

This implies that the Pauline epistles may predate the Gospels so if anyone began the fiction project it would have likely been the well-educated Saul/Paul, rather than the author of Mark.

Paul didn't write of a 30 CE Jesus. He clearly knew nothing about such a man.

You're point about Jesus being wart-free because he is fictional is a good one except that Jesus isn't wart-free: he was an inveterate sinner according to Jewish law.

Try telling a Christian that Jesus wasn't perfect. I grew up singing about Jesus, the perfectly-white Lamb of God.

 

[Quagmire]

That's just not an option for those in the know. There are those that know that Jesus existed and there are those that know that he didn't because opinions are like that, they vary.

"I don't know" isn't an option for a lot of people for a lot of reasons.

 

[steeltoes]

Writen at a time when people could rememebr back to that Passover and refute his existance if it was fictional.


Whats funny is, no one back then really even questioned his existance, even his enemies didnt say he was fiction.

Really?
What's funny is, no one back then really even questioned the killing of all those babies ordered by Herod when this Jesus was supposedly born in Bethlehem, even his enemies didn't say this was fiction.

 

[outhouse]

Anyway, your claim is easily disproven by the Bible itself. See 2nd John 1:7....I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world.

.

There were plently like Marcion that claimed he was a spiritual all deity. Not half man.


Which has nothing to do with his non existance at all.

 

[outhouse]

I've never read about that outside of church vision of history...let alone when there would have been people who knew a real person - they were underground secret squirrel for 20 years at least?

Paul persecuted them, so we know early on they were hunted.

Nero perceuted them 60 CE

180 we have a diary of a women who would rather die then denounce christ.

Lyon france,allthough there was also political influence besides theological.

The question is when was it legalized, that is when persecutions stopped.



Take into account we know these christian tales are complete exaggerations, the first 300 years of christianity were brutal.