1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by The Sum of Awe, Feb 22, 2014.

  1. The Sum of Awe

    The Sum of Awe Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    14,521
    Ratings:
    +1,526
    Religion:
    This is all actually happening. What the heck???
    It's not an original thought, but it hit me. What if Christianity is an offbrand, created by a beggar who claimed to be God for fortune? Obviously Jesus did not reveal to want fortune, in fact was very selfless and appeared as wanting to bring fortune to all others.

    This simply could be an example of a homeless man expressing communism, not raising his fortune, but taking the small fortune of others altogether, then fractioning it down into equal fortune, and thus him too was given fortune and rose to a common social class.

    I am very appreciative of Jesus, but don't view him as the same entity as God or the Holy Spirit (except if you consider my view of the Holy Spirit interconnecting all with God, that Man is Christ blessed with the holy spirit, btw not Christian, my theology includes this too add to its complication). However rude the question may seem, I think God allows me to question with no disrespect, having suddenly getting a more positive and paradigm shifting perspective on Abrahamic (specifically Christian) theology. So, in no way is this meant to disrespect Jesus or spit on his holiness.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Sees

    Sees Dragonslayer

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Messages:
    4,729
    Ratings:
    +2,832
    Religion:
    Ásatrú - Path of Heroes™
    It's very possible he was simply a guy preaching stuff. Can't really know if he said what is in any gospel, if he really lived or was a story character, what his motives were or those of the story creators, etc.
     
  3. psychoslice

    psychoslice Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15,550
    Ratings:
    +4,125
    Religion:
    my own religion
    For me personally I don't think a Jesus ever existed, but I feel there has been a lot fraud in the stories written about this myth call Jesus.
     
  4. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    46,990
    Ratings:
    +15,401
    Religion:
    Advocate of letting go of theism. Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.
    I would be surprised if we somehow found out that a literal Jesus existed.

    He has all the marks of an allegory. Somewhat like Socrates in Plato's book, despite we knowing that there was an actual Socrates.
     
  5. The Sum of Awe

    The Sum of Awe Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    14,521
    Ratings:
    +1,526
    Religion:
    This is all actually happening. What the heck???
    I agree. And in part, this will also go along with a response to my OP question but:

    Whether or not Jesus had existed, or was a fraud matters, as the philosophy is what's important, not the metaphysics. Jesus' ethics are not usually primarily focused on, but I think that's because of misappropriation and idolizing the metaphysics over the philosophy.
     
  6. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    22,218
    Ratings:
    +8,109
    Religion:
    deist
    Hi Sum!

    Yes...... I feel confident that this man was real. Mark's account (G-Mark) is a very good report about his life, and how his mission got started and failed.

    I've studied G-Mark for years now, and read the ideas offered by other RF members, and over the last year I have written a book about that year in his life. I'm thinking of publishing it through Amazon, but want to leave it for a few months and then give it a third reading before I send it off.

    I believe that Yeshua, or Yahoshua (bar Yosef) was a wood, stone and bone craftsman who developed the most amazing ability to cure many physical and mental conditions..... with a very very quick mind. Over time he worked less and less as a craftsman and more and more as a travelling healer. It was an easy and very enjoyable lifestyle and he was favoured in all the villages and towns around Capernaum.

    All of Yeshua's reported miracles (in G-Mark) did have a foundation of fact, but grew with the oral tradition.

    John the Baptist recognised his value as a crowd 'puller' and Yeshua was attracted to John's mission. After John was arrested it was a great temptation to get away back to his old life, but instead Yeshua picked up the challenge. The crowds were attracted to his curing sessions but not really interested in the main mission. He was not a preacher, but a speech maker.

    In a final attempt to win through he went with his followers to Jerusalem, took control of the Temple courts over three days, was arrested and executed.

    And the stories grew as they were exaggerated.

    And then along came Saul/Paul. And along came his version of the religion that would grip much of the world.

    I say Yeshua was real..... and an absolutely beautiful person.
    And I say that Saul's manipulating religion was just that....... not real.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,702
    Ratings:
    +230
    How do we know there was an actual Socrates? I've never looked into it, so forgive my ignorance.
     
  8. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    46,990
    Ratings:
    +15,401
    Religion:
    Advocate of letting go of theism. Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.
    Actually, I don't know. I assume we have some sort of historical or archeological record, but the truth is that I do not know.
     
  9. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,702
    Ratings:
    +230
    As I say, I haven't looked into it. But it is easier for me to accept Socrates than Jesus as historical.
     
  10. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    48,683
    Ratings:
    +4,883
    Real or not....His life draws a line...

    Let's say He was no more than smart.
    His parables are then the focus.
    Did He get it wrong?

    Let's say the miracles are true....could we do the same?

    Either way....real or not.....

    Do we speak as He did?.....and should we?
    What happens to us if we don't?

    If we cannot perform as He did....can we crossover?
    Should the performance of miracles be required?

    Let's be easy on each other.
    Miracles are not required.....nice if we can...be not the line drawn.

    That leaves the parables.
    Do we abide accordingly?
    If not.....we won't be living with Him.
     
    #10 Thief, Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  11. LightTraveler

    LightTraveler Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2014
    Messages:
    90
    Ratings:
    +4
    Religion:
    spiritual/indigenous

    How can you possibly say anything other than "I just don't know."? How can you feel that he never existed when there's no way for you to know at all? Same with anyone. People like to think they have more answers than they really do.

    A fraud? No. Something other than what many people claim? Most likely.
     
  12. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,702
    Ratings:
    +230
    People have opinions. I don't think that Scooby Doo ever existed in the (dog)flesh. But it's just my opinion.

    How can you possibly say anything other than "I just don't know." How can you feel that he isn't a fraud when there's no way for you to know at all?
     
  13. LightTraveler

    LightTraveler Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2014
    Messages:
    90
    Ratings:
    +4
    Religion:
    spiritual/indigenous
    Suffice it to say....you wouldn't understand. Throwing my words back at me is an easy reflexive response when you don't have any other answer. So, just sit back and enjoy your ambiguity, guy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,804
    Ratings:
    +1,886
    One can make more informaed opinions through education and plausibility.
     
  15. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,804
    Ratings:
    +1,886
    What fortune?


    What fortune did he want to bring to others?



    I dont think so. But your getting warmer.

    It was a poor miserable existance in Nazareth. He may have been trying to get poor people to pull together and cut out the severe taxation that kept them oppressed and dirt poor. Giving to others and sharing to avoid feeding the machine that kept them oppressed.
     
  16. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,702
    Ratings:
    +230
    I'm hearing that it's OK for you to be certain but not OK for those who disagree with you (about the historical Jesus, for example)
     
  17. LightTraveler

    LightTraveler Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2014
    Messages:
    90
    Ratings:
    +4
    Religion:
    spiritual/indigenous
    They can feel certain all they like. :)
     
  18. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    35,804
    Ratings:
    +1,886
    While mythology was created, lived and followed about the man. Theres little reason for me to believe the Romans would make a god out of a poor peasant Jewish teacher.

    Why make one of your most important figures in Roman society to what amounts to a oppressed slave, one of your oppressed victims?
     
  19. Knight of Albion

    Knight of Albion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2013
    Messages:
    3,137
    Ratings:
    +350
    'Jesus' was an Essene priest who advocated, taught and exemplified Christ Consciousness.
    Orthodoxy later, to further its own ends, wove a false image about him, corrupted many of his teachings and totally suppressed others.

    In the final analysis though, as with all true teachers of the Light, his message was Love.
    Christ Consciousness is Love Consciousness and that is the great lesson not just of Christianity but the core of spiritual evolution itself.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. enaidealukal

    enaidealukal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,952
    Ratings:
    +154
    Is it possible Christ was "a fraud" in the sense that he was not homooisius with God, he was not divine, did not enact miracles, and so on? Well, clearly. Is that an overwhelming probability? For sure. The more interesting (and difficult) question is, could Jesus NOT have been a fraud? I'm not sure how to answer that, as there are some serious problems in supposing that it is even POSSIBLE that he was not a fraud, in any robust doctrinal sense- what would that even mean, in concrete terms? :shrug:
     
Loading...