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Featured Could Christianity and Islam ever reach a consensus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lucian Hodoboc, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Jesus was arrested and put on trial by Romans, not Jews, read your scriptures!!
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    It was the Jews first who wanted to crucify Christ Jesus, But the Jews seeing that they had no jurisdiction to crucify anyone had to take Christ Jesus to Rome and have the Governor of Rome to do their dirty work of having Christ Jesus crucified.
     
  3. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Sorry but that is not in the bible, its just made up nonsense. Jesus never went to Rome either!! Jesus was crucified by the Roman Government of Palestine because he was a potential uniter and leader of a Jewish insurrection against the Roman occupation. He was crucified for being a leader of the Jews, not because the Jews wanted him crucified.
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Romans didn't get involved in Jewish religious matters as long as we kept the peace and paid our taxes. Therefore, he could not have been crucified because of anything we said to them, plus crucifixion was reserved for violation of Roman law, not Jewish Law.

    So, what did Jesus get in trouble with the Romans doing, and the answer may fall into two areas: one is his disruption at the money-exchange at the Temple whereas the Romans took a slice out of each shekel changed. Another possibility is when Jesus talked about his "kingdom", and that would have sent up red flags to the Romans as monarchies don't like competition.
     
  5. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Wow, what other non-Biblical versions are there? I'm curious.
     
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    When Roman Governor Pilate brought Jesus out before the people, he told them that he could not find no fault in him, Therefore Jesus didn't break any Roman laws, if Jesus did it be very unlikely that Governor Pilate would said that he could not find no fault in Jesus, But then the people started to yell, crucify him,
    So it was Roman custom to let one prisoner go and crucify another, So The Roman Governor Pilate ask the people who they would like set free, This in return the people yelled Barnabas, and to crucify Jesus. So the Roman soldiers lead Jesus away to be crucified outside of Jerusalem.
     
    #146 Faithofchristian, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    When Roman historians are consulted on the above, all they can do is to laugh because that was not at all the Roman custom, nor does it make any sense whatsoever. Why in the world would the Romans send back into the public a violent and convicted man and then supposedly execute a man who only violated a Jewish religious Law, not a civilian law? Doesn't that even seem a wee bit fishy to you?

    So, why does this story appear in the gospels? Probably to demean Jews who refused to convert to "the Way", especially since the gospels have a relatively late writing, whereas Jewish conversions to the Way may have begun to dry up. By portraying Jews who refused to convert as being evil, this fits into the "my way or the highway" narrative that is especially noticeable in John's gospel whereas Jews are portrayed as being children of the devil.

    Whether you want to accept it or not, crucifixion was a Roman style of execution and was only used to enforce Roman laws.
     
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Maybe to you, but what is written is written.
     
  9. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Muslims I don't think would compromise their belief that Jesus was not literally God.

    Christians on the other hand... there WERE many Christians in the early church that thought the idea that Jesus was God was ludicrous. There are Christians today who are unitarian and not trinitarian (original meaning of the term "unitarian", not to be confused with the UU which today is not explicitly unitarian).

    Basically if "compromise" is to be had, as if the two groups are some monolithic entities or whatever, I'd say that Christians would be more likely to flip considering that they are not all currently trinitarian, and traditionally there were many Christian groups who agreed with Islam on the status of Jesus (the Arians, Monarchianists, etc.)
     
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  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    First you have to know which Christians are Christians. For not everyone who claims to be Christian are not Christians.

    A true Christian that is strong in what they believe will not change their beliefs.

    If you find a Christian who change's their beliefs, I would be questioning if they really were a Christian.
     
  11. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Well I mostly agree. But all I am saying is that some Christians would not even need to change their beliefs, because some already actually do agree with Muslims about the nature of Jesus.

    There were even more unitarian Christians in the days of early Christianity before they were violently suppressed post Nicene.

    So my point is that because all Muslims would have to compromise their beliefs to move towards a trinitarian view, but not all Christians would need to compromise their beliefs to move towards a unitarian view, that it is more likely for the Christians, as a whole, to move towards unitarianism then it would be for the Muslims, as a whole, to move towards trinitarianism.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    A lot of things are "written" that aren't necessarily true, and one should realize that all scriptures in all religions are written from subjective viewpoints, not objective ones.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Waite if that Christian sides with Muslims about the nature of Jesus, then that Christian just changed their belief on about the nature of Jesus.
     
  14. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Not all Christians agree with the Council of Nicene. I was once one such unitarian Christian. Some Christians do already believe Jesus was not literally God Himself. They don't need to change their faith to match Islam's view of Jesus because they already believe Jesus was not literally God.
     
  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    In the Christian faith, there is only one scripture written, that came from Holy men of God, that they only written what was given to them by the Holy Spirit of God.
    But as it is there were Kenites that tried to change the scriptures, But Prophet Nehemiah caught them in their act.

    That even to day, Kenites are still trying to discredit God's word, still trying to add things into the scriptures, to try to discredit the scriptures.
    There are Christians who knows these Kenites and will not be taken in by their trying to undermine the Scriptures.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I'm not trying to change anyone's scriptures nor undermine any of them, especially since I taught Christian theology for 14 years, a comparative religions course for two additional years, and I read Jewish and Christian scriptures literally every single day of the week.
     
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Then they are not true Christians. That's like saying Atheist comes to be a Christian, they are no longer can be considered Atheists. An Atheist is a person who does not believe in the existence of God.

    But now they are Christian and believes in the existence of God, you can no longer say they are Atheists.

    No more than a Christian who claims that Jesus is not God, can not claim to be a Christian. They can claim to be a Christian all they want to, that does not make it so.
     
  18. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Your view is why Arian Christians were violently oppressed following the Council of Nicene. Many early Christians believed Jesus was the Son of God, but not God Himself, as many Christian scriptures seem to imply that fact (Luke 22:42: Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.).

    At the very least you would have to admit that for early Christians, especially those without access to the Book of John or knowledge of its interpretations, it would be a pretty easy assumption to make that Jesus and God were separate.

    So you are saying all those early devotees of Jesus, all those who followed his Word, all those who were even unaware of the very few Scriptures in John that even hint at a trinity, all of those people who suffered and even died for their belief in Christ, all of those martyrs and saints, but who merely did not believe in or were unaware of the interpretation of the Book of John that says Jesus is literally God, were not real Christians??

    Sorry but I find your views there abhorrent.
     
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  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ok, you say that you read Christian scriptures, but those Christian scriptures as you call them, are actually the Greek and Hebrew manual Scripts. Which were translated into English back in 1611.

    Ok, now when you read the Scriptures.
    Let's take the book of Mark for instance, and say in the book of Mark 13:11, what do you get out of that.to see. Who exactly is Jesus talking to.and what is Jesus talking about, when he said in that hour, and when Jesus told them not to give any thought beforehand or premeditate what they are to say. What are they doing if they speak first before the Spirit speaks through them.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Oh wow, I didn't know that! :rolleyes:

    BTW, can you read Hebrew? Koine Greek?
     
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