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Featured Could Christianity and Islam ever reach a consensus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lucian Hodoboc, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    It's more about which version of salvation is valid. If one is righteous when measured by an older version of covenant, he doesn't need the New Covenant brought about by Jesus. If one is not saved by an older version of covenant, he needs the New Covenant in order to be saved. Christians will not accept Muslin in the worrying that if the incorrect gospel is breached, no one will be able to be saved. Christians may adapt only if the issue doesn't concern the eternal consequences of human souls.

    By speculation, modern humans (those in the western world at least) won't be able to abide by laws specified in the Bible, only God's grace through Jesus Christ can save them. To them, only Christianity can save! That's the point!

    To put it another way, if salvation is out of concern you can choose whatever religions you wish to, they don't matter. If however salvation is a concern, one needs to choose a religion which provides a reasonable and achievable solution as the salvation. That's why Christianity is the way to go!
     
    #121 Hawkins, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  2. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Be consistent and show me where Moses or Abraham pbut in the Torah taught God is a son, a Holy Spirit and the three are One

    I thought Holy Spirit was God from God?

    Sounds like Polytheism. Is the Holy Spirit husband to Mary, mother of Jesus pbuh?


    All the Prophets in the Torah explained who God was and showed the people how to gain everlasting life.


    I agree, God alone guides people to accept his Prophets, Jesus pbuh in this case, and those who follow the Prophet will find Jesus pbuh vouching for them on Judgement Day. He was very specific on how to obtain salvation:

    Worship God alone, and keep Torah commandments, ensuring your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees and Scribes. No doubt women would have followed his Mother, covering the hair and dressing modestly.

    And to prove the above:

    1) He is the way.
    2) He is the truth.
    3) He is the life.
    4) No one comes to the Father except through him.


    The 'Way', the 'Truth' and the 'Life' are all metaphors for Torah or being Torah observant:

    I am the way. To his Disciples; the Old Testament Jew, the way was the Torah. The only way to God was through the law. Psalms 119:1 says, “Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the LAW of the LORD.” Psalms 32:8 says, “I will instruct you and show you the way to go; with My eye on you, I will give counsel.” Jesus' followers were also very familiar with Exodus 18:20”And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do.” For the Jews, that way was the law and the prophets. In Jewish tradition, the way to find the path to God was to study the Torah.

    I am the truth. To the Torah Jew, the truth was the Torah. Psalms 119:142 says, “Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is truth.” Verse 151 says “You are near, Lord, and all Your commands are truth.” The Jews understood, that truth was the law and the prophets. Absolute truth could only be found in God and revealed in the Law and the Prophets. God was seen as the God of Truth, and the Torah was said to be His thoughts and the revelation of His purpose in the creation of the universe, thereby revealing absolute truth. All “truth” was to be compared against the Truth revealed in the Law and the prophets. The disciples had been taught from childhood that if something did not line up with the truth of scripture, then it was not true.

    I am the life. To the Torah Jew, the life was the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, Moses gives the Israelites a choice to make. They could choose life and prosperity, or they could choose death and adversity. If they chose life, they would have to walk in God's ways, and keep his Law, because God is their life. If they chose death, they were free to ignore God's ways and laws. Moses gave them this advice, choose life. For the Israelite, to follow the law was to choose life. The Torah was life. The disciples had been taught this from childhood.

    No one comes to the Father except through Me. To the Old Testament Jew, the only way to God was through the Law. The Law made it possible for the Israelites to approach God. The sacrifices and rituals allowed them to present themselves before God and to be accepted by him. Those who tried to approach God without following the Law usually ended up dead, (Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10). All Israelites knew that the only way to God was through the Law.

    Four radical, clear cut statements from the lips of Jesus pbuh. Remember he was very clear about the Torah:

    Sermon on the Mount; Matthew 5:
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


    Follow and obey the Prophet, just like the previous Prophets.


    Confirms the above.
     
  3. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Where does it say 20% was kept by him? The disrupted the caravans to stop the war capabilities of the Quresh and get compensated for their own wealth and property tat had been seized.

    Any war booty collected by the Prophet pbuh was distributed amongst the poor.

    According to Christians, Jesus pbuh commanded similar things in the Torah:

    Jeremiah 30:16 'Therefore all who devour you will be devoured; And all your adversaries, every one of them, will go into captivity; And those who plunder you will be for plunder, And all who prey upon you I will give for prey.

    Isaiah 42:22 But this is a people plundered and despoiled; All of them are trapped in caves, Or are hidden away in prisons; They have become a prey with none to deliver them, And a spoil, with none to say, "Give them back!"

    2 Kings 3:23 Then they said, "This is blood; the kings have surely fought together, and they have slain one another. Now therefore, Moab, to the spoil!"

    Nahum 2:9 Plunder the silver! Plunder the gold! For there is no limit to the treasure-- Wealth from every kind of desirable object.


    God guides whom He wills. People who study from authentic sources often revert to Islam.


    Death separates body from soul. The body you have can not stand in the presence of God, no one's can, which is why we have improved bodies before entering Heaven



    Judaism teaches 7 Heavens too:

    Why Do We Wrap the Tefillin Straps 7 Times Around the Arm?

    Between death and the First Heaven is Hades, or the interspace, a vast plain where people await in their graves.
    The lowest Heaven is where most people strive to enter, and is the biggest blessing any of us can hope to obtain, but you will not be in the presence of the Prophets of God here, rather you have to be as pious as possible, hoping to enter the highest level of Heaven as possible. Prophets and GOD Himself are to be found in the 7th Heaven. There 500 years of time travel between one heaven to the next and you can in the afterlife strive and work your way up through the Heavens, as we have eternity to look forward to.


    I'll leave that for a practising Jew to answer.


    Ok it's Saul's opinion. James and Peter thought him a false teacher.


    I have no clue what this means. Islam teaches Jesus pbuh returns to kill the Dajjal, Anti Christ and reigns on Earth for some 40 years, in which time he marries, has children and eventually dies and is buried. The Torah says these things about the Messiah too.



    Looks like works is key for salvation. Judaism teaches Judgement happens after death, and their is no Judgement Day, but Islam makes clear you are Judged in the grave, (first Resurrection) and then Resurrected again in your body on Judgement Day along with the rest of mankind.



    I agree, those who obey God are his spiritual children. Those who reject his Prophets will face rejection in the hereafter.



    In Islam Jesus pbuh is a creation of God, no different to Adam pbuh, both were the word of God. He said, 'BE' and they were.


    There's no hint of a pre-existing Jesus pbuh in the genealogies given in Mathew or Luke.



    The Dead Sea Scrolls prove there were differing Torahs. You also have little idea who wrote much of the Bible.


    What New Covenant? Jesus pbuh lived under the Law of Moses pbuh and made clear nothing was to change, not even a single jot.


    You must be referring to Christian Historians.


    Where did Jesus pbuh explain he was the expected Messiah?
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe your answer to be illogical. I will give you a shot at using logic but I am not sure you know how.
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Muslim UK said "Be consistent and show me where Moses or Abraham pbut in the Torah taught God is a son, a Holy Spirit and the three are One"

    I believe this is a red Herring and the null hypothesis. You have to show why it would be necessary for them to say it.
     
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Well you sure do not know how to use logic yourself. So how are you to show
    someone logic when you, yourself have no logic.
     
  7. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Why red herring? Jews reject the notion of God being triune and sharing His throne with 2 others, whereas you say He has always been Three. Other than the Catholic Church, who else taught this concept before the Second Century?
     
  8. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    The Trinity doctrine implies that there are no two "others" as such, and therefore no sharing.

    Instead, there would be a sole deity which happens to like to manifest itself in three distinct aspects.

    No one has to take that as truth, of course. But it is not like they are proposing three independent deities.
     
  9. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    If there is no sharing, then why do Christians say, Jesus pbuh was not the one who ordered the massacres in the OT, they say that was the Father and had nothing to do with Jesus pbuh.
     
  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If I may say, you said that the Jews rejected the notion of God being triune and sharing his throne with 2 others.

    You do know those that followed Christ, and the 12 disciples were Jews themselves.
    You do know it is written, they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel.
    This means that there are two Jews in Israel, one a true Jew and the other a false Jew.So they are not all of Israel, which are of Israel.
    There were Jews that did know who Christ Jesus was and became his followers and his 12 disciples.
    And there are those Jews who stood against Christ Jesus and crucified him and there are those Jews that stood with Christ Jesus to the very end, to where the other Jews had Christ Jesus crucified.
     
  11. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I guess you would have to ask a Christian whether they say such things and why.

    As I understand it, the typical (there are myriad) Christian stance on the matter is that Jesus _is_ God, yet he developed a taste for compassion since the OT and felt the need to revise the terms of his alliance with people. Hence the often-named "New Alliance". Whether the Christian God _became_ a trinity or was always so is a matter of some debate (pointless and inconsequential debate IMO, but debate nonetheless).

    I am fairly certain that few if any Christians would agree with the claim that God the Father had nothing to do with Jesus, in any case.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jews did not crucify Jesus-- the Romans did.
     
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  13. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    They don't like to discuss such things as it just proves they worship multiple gods.
     
  14. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Largely agree with your post, but on the 12 Disciples, I would say they had no clue about the concept of the Trinity.
     
  15. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    With all due respect, what you are saying makes no sense.
     
  16. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Jesus never preached the Trinity, he never called himself God, either. That was all added later, a little bit by Paul, but mostly well after the Bible was written, so it is not scriptural.
     
  17. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Makes a lot more sense than what you have been writing!!
     
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    It was those false Jews who stood against Christ Jesus that wanted him crucified and turned him over to The Governor of Rome. Who eventually had Christ Jesus crucified.But it was the false Jews who first wanted Jesus crucified.

    But the false Jews seeing that they had no Authority to crucify anyone, So they took Jesus to Rome, To have Rome do their dirty work of having Jesus crucified.
     
  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I will give your opinion all due attention and worth, rest assured.
     
  20. Lucian Hodoboc

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    Because they are ignorant Christians. Jesus is part of The Trinity. He agrees with The Father in everything and it has been that way since the beginning of time. Jesus is just as just in punishment as God as He was kind in behavior as human. He wanted to teach humans how they should behave because He already knew how to behave as God. Punishment belongs to God, not to us. That's why Jesus in human form preached kindness.
     
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