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Could Christianity and Islam ever reach a consensus?
- Thread starter Lucian Hodoboc
- Start date
Prophet Adam pbuh had no human Father or Mother.
And rejected as the Messiah who was to come from the seed of King David's descendants.
Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the begotten Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'
God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22
Where did he call himself son of mankind? Being the son of man is just acknowledging he was born and sustained by a human mother.
See the above responses.
Mark 13:31-33
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 32 But as for that day or hour,no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come.
He told us Prophet Jesus pbuh was a mighty Messenger of God and was saved from a humiliating death on the cross as was his wish. We read in the NT he stayed up all night praying to be saved, so much that he was sweating blood. We read that God always answered his prayers in the Gospel of John:
John 11:41-43
…41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 I knew that You always hear Me, but I say this for the benefit of the people standing here, so they may believe that You sent Me.”
Hebrews 5:7-
7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
btw Melchizedek has no beginning or end, and no parents, worthy perhaps of your worship too?
We were all before Abraham pbuh unless you believe our souls only came into existence at our human birth?
And likely Abraham pbuh told his followers of Prophets to come, yet nowhere do we read God himself would manifest himself in a human body and die for the sins of the World. Totally unknown concept, and no wonder the Jews utterly reject such a pagan concept.
Sorry but no statement of Christian faith has Jesus pbuh as God the Father. Of the 3 distinct separate persons of the trinity, he is the son and NOT the father.
You are probably taking John 8 out of context.
Again that's the father, nothing to do with Jesus pbuh
Firstly Jesus pbuh said I am, not I AM THAT I AM. Secondly when they picked up stones stopping him from finishing his sentence, "I am ... ???? " he fled. Does God flee from his creation :/
There is no mention of the name Yeshua or Jesus in Genesis 17 or 18. Angels appear as men on behalf of God, and there is evidence for this in many places of the Torah.
Sorry but no because we read Jesus pbuh used to pray by himself and the Disciples asked him to teach them too. If what you say was true, then he would have from the start explained he wanted them to pray like so. But no, he prays and they ask if they can learn the prayer too and he says yes:
Luke 11:
Now Jesus[a] was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:
“Father, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread,
4 and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.”
Jesus pbuh like other human Prophets prayed for forgiveness.
You should fear God and worship Him alone or risk the Hell Fire.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Do you know what a Spirit is.
The Almighty God is a Spirit that can not die.
The Spirit is immortal that can not die.
God the Father is Spirit that is immortal that can not die.
You can not see the wind, but you can see the wind blowing through the trees, but you can not see the wind it's self.
So the wind is invisible that you can not see the wind, the spirit it to is invisible that you can not see it.
You see inside of your body, you have a spirit.
Inside of Jesus body, there is God the Father's spirit that dwells inside of Jesus body.
The body of Jesus die, but God the Father inside of the body of Jesus can not die.
Like you, your body die, but your spirit inside of your body can not die.
When you die your body returns to the dust of the earth.
But your spirit go back to God the Father who gave it.
God the Father made himself a body, so that he could come down here walk with us to be one of us in human body.
Inside of the body of Jesus is God the Father, The body of Jesus was just a covering for God the Father to be able to be like us as a human being. While he was here on earth.
Look many years ago, when men would go hunting, they would cover themselves in animal skins, So that the animals would see them as one of them and the animals would think nothing about it, not knowing that under the animal skins was a man.
So in like manner God the Father made himself a body to come down here to be like us. People not knowing that under that body of Jesus, is God The Father.
Can God the Father die No that is silly, God the Father can not die, the body of Jesus dies.
When you die, your body die, your spirit inside of your body not die. your spirit returns back to God the Father who gave it.
Like the wind blows where it will, you can not see the wind. Your spirit like the wind you can not see it. Your spirit returns back to God the Father and your body returns back earth as dust.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
That is right Adam had no father, God was Adams father, but for all others we have human fathers. King Daivd has human father, Moses has human father, Prophet Daniel has human father.
When Jesus said to the Jews before Abraham was I Am. Then the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus, Jesus left because it was not his hour to die.
Jesus did not run from his creation, Jesus left because it was not his hour to die.
Look when Jesus was in the garden and the Jews came to arrest him, Jesus did not run, Why. Because Jesus hour to die was coming and Jesus was facing his hour to die. So Jesus was taken to trial to be Judge, and then after he was tried and Judge, Jesus was then crucified nailed to the cross. This all had to happen for the holy scriptures to be fulfilled. Jesus hour had come and to die, for all the holy scriptures to be fulfilled.
If Jesus would have died any time before, then the holy scriptures would not be fulfilled.
That is why Jesus left not to be stone, so that the holy scriptures can be fulfilled at the crucified nailed on the cross.
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So no part of God died on the cross? Only a man who you think was Jesus pbuh.
We all have a spirit from God in us, every single one of us. So why say Jesus is 100% god if you believe the spirit is what makes us god? If a human being died on the cross, then what's so special about that? I know whoever it was on the cross set a new record for the fastest crucifixion in History, but even so, how does that help anyone in their sin? We know God hates human sacrifices and in the Torah and Qur'an God tells is no soul shall bear the sins of another being.
Makes no sense. How comes none of his family thought him divine?
They saw him as a Prophet that God used to work through, just like previous Prophets:
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know."
I understand a spirit like the rest of us, but you take things way too far in worshipping a man.
Yes all people with faith, know the Spirit returns to God for judgement.
Jesus pbuh has a human mother. God tells us in the Qur'an to remember, Jesus pbuh was born, tired, got hungry, thirsty, ate food and drank water. He was human, but special as a Prophet beloved of God.
There is no power in the combined Universe that could hurt God anymore than a Dog barking at the Sun would hope to diminish its brightness. He fled as he was afraid of being stoned, but later in the same Gospel, he makes it plain, he is NOT God:
John 10
29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
Here he is proving himself to be a Prophet of God, doing the work of God, and they should know, they too are considered gods in Psalms 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
Another instance where he denies being divine or part of a trinity:
Mark 10
The Rich Young Man
17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Jesus pbuh really spelled it out clearly, worship God alone, keep the commandments and give to the poor. This was the perfect opportunity to explain salvation through his blood and belief in the Trinity, but he mentions Nothing of the sort. God alone is good.
There is nothing about a Messiah to be crucified in the Torah for the sins of the World. I covered this with Lucian earlier in this thread:
He was not crucified according to James, Peter and at least 6 other disciples outside of the NT who wrote to say another whose name was Simon was crucified in error by the enemies of Jesus pbuh.
"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will put them to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."
When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place."
But he said to me, "I have told you, 'Leave the blind alone!'. And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame."
And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was <filled> with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed.
The Apocalypse of Peter -- The Nag Hammadi Library 80-100 AD
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
Many early Christian sects did not believe Jesus was crucified. Jesus laughed with joy:
Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all. Those, then, who know these things have been freed from the principalities who formed the world; so that it is not incumbent on us to confess him who was crucified, but him who came in the form of a man, and was thought to be crucified, and was called Jesus, and was sent by the Father.
(The Church Father Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Chapter XXIV.-Doctrines of Saturninus and Basilides) <<< Basilides was an early Gnostic religious teacher in Alexandria, Egypt who taught from 117 to 138 AD, and claimed to have inherited his teachings from Matthew.
Notice how Iranaeus says “through ignorance and error” the Jews misapprehended, and crucified the wrong person. Amazingly, the Holy Qur'an harmonises this account, stating that they follow error, conjecture, and ignorance:
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: (Al-Quran 4:157)
The 1945 discovery of Gnostic texts at Nag Hammadi, Egypt unearthed a book called The Second Treatise of the Great Seth, 55-56 AD where Jesus states:
I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I suffered according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance. (The Treatise of the Great Seth)
“There are also several historical sources other than the Bible and the Qur'an which confirm that many of the early Christians did not believe that Jesus died on the cross...The Cerinthians and later the Basilidians, for example, who were among the first of the early Christian communities, denied that Jesus was crucified...The Carpocratians, another early Christian sect, believed that it was not Jesus who was crucified, but another in his place”.
(Jesus Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ataur-Raheem, Ahmed Thompson, 1996 (revised edition. p47)
“… Plotinus, who lived in the fourth century, tells us that he had read a book called The Journies of the Apostles which related the acts of Peter, John, Andrew, Barnabas, Thomas and Paul. Among other things, it stated that Jesus was not crucified, but another in his place, and therefore, he laughed at those who believed that they had crucified him”.
(ibid, Jesus Prophet of Islam, 1991 edition. P. 37) acts of john 97-101 AD
Throw into the mix the facts, you don't have the originals, widespread editing from Scribes and Church Fathers, fabricated letters and epistles, disagreement between John and the Synoptics about what was said at the trial, where the trial was, the day and time of the crucifixion, and events surrounding the empty tomb, and it is plain to see you can not be sure of anything about the alleged crucifixion.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Can you tell who is the true Christian and who the false Christian.can you tell who is the true Jew and who is the false Jew.
You see before you say Christian, you first have to know who is the true christian and who is the false Christian.
You look at all Christians as being the same and christians are not all the same.
I'm using the Qur'an to respond to your questions:
Any Christian who thinks Jesus pbuh should be worshipped is on the wrong path. Any Jew who scoffs as the commandments of God is also on the wrong path. Ultimately it is for God alone to judge who is correct in their beliefs, as He is the Most Merciful, Most Forgiving. He could have made us all Jews, Christians or Muslims if He so desired, but He didn't so that we come to know one another and reach common ground where possible.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
I'm also using the Q'uran to respond to you.
In the Q'uran it said, that Jews and christians are infidel's are to be killed.
But yet those Jews are the children of Isaac which Isaac is the son of Abraham which are Abraham's grand children.
Which before Christians were called Christians were called ( The way ) which were Jews, and then later became to be called Christians, which are Jews and Gentiles mix together.
So when your prophet muhammad in the Q'uran calls Jews and christians infidels and are to be killed, Your prophet muhammad and the Q'uran promotes the killing of Abraham's grand and Isaac children.
Where does it say that?
Well the true followers of Jesus pbuh were called the Ebionites and in the 7th Century they reverted to Islam en-mass. The Qur'an predicted the followers of Jesus pbuh would become the dominant force in time, and today they number some 1.6 Billion:
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Qur'an 3:55
The Ebionites: True followers of Jesus who converted to Islam
As you know Catholics and Protestants numbering some 2.2 Billion people follow their Prophet Paul and his particular branch of Christianity.
I know the Qur'an condemns Jews and Christians who turned their back on the covenant they made with God. Similarly Jesus pbuh in the NT condemned those Jews, labelling them liars and hypocrites and in turn his brother James pbuh condemned the fake Christians who were promoting the empty cross as salvation. Ultimately everyone only has themselves to blame on Judgement Day.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Q'uran
Surah 8:12- "I will cast terror into the hearts all those who disbelieve, therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Surah 9:29 - "fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, ( even if they are ) of the People of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
You do know who the People of the book is Right, They are Jews and Christians of the book ( bible )
Mister Silver
Faith's Nightmare
Christians want everyone else to be christian while muslims want everyone else to be muslim. I don't see much room for compromise.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Not all Christians thinks like that, If a person wants to be Christian that is their choice and not my decision to make.
Nor will I try to convince people or use any scare tactic, that is their choice.its no sweat off of me whether a person does or not.
If person comes to me and ask me about christianity then I will talk with that person.
Now Remember they came to me and not me to them.
But in no way will I try to convince them or use any scare tactic to them, that is not what christianity is about. Well that is not what this Christian is about.
A person has their free will to think for themselves and to make their own decisions. Who am I to tell a person what's in their best interest. That is for that person to decide what is in their best interest and not me to tell them.
I am Christian, but not the kind of Christian your thinking of.
There are those christians who thinks to convince people, to use scare tactics to get them in becoming Christian.
Which they have no clue at all what a true Christian is or how to talk to people, not to try in convince people or the use of scare tactics.
But to talk with people has humans that will make their own decisions in life choices.
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In the NT it was the Scribes and Pharisees and no doubt those who followed them.
So you said, "So when your prophet muhammad in the Q'uran calls Jews and christians infidels and are to be killed, Your prophet muhammad and the Q'uran promotes the killing of Abraham's grand and Isaac children."
I asked where and you posted 8:12 which makes no mention of Jews and Christians.
9:29 is for those who don't believe in God and his Commandments. I don't see a problem with it? You say, your God, Jesus, Father and HS commanded non believers to be fought against in the Torah and New Testament, so I'm not sure what your issue is?
both will collapse into mysticism and gnosticism.
all distortions are an aspect of a/one spectrum
Yeah sure, it's only been almost 2,000 years in the case of Christianity, and a free pass into Heaven is too good to ignore.
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Yes this World will one day cease to be, and a New Creation will be brought forth, but we will be in a different time and place far removed from this Planet. It would be fascinating to know what kind of World theirs will be or what kind of creation of God they will be.
I think it will always be split like this although there is a religion known as Messianic Judaism so it could be likely that there would be some Muslims who follow Islam yet also believe in the Trinity etc and maybe Christians who believe that Jesus was a prophet and not Divine. I think that because there are so many denominations within Christianity, it leaves a lot of interpretations open for Christians.