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Conversion question

Rocky_girl

New Member
Hello all,

I have been involved in the local Jewish community for the past year- attending Shabbat services, holidays, Torah study, and other educational things. I became a member of the congregation and my kids attend Hebrew school. I have been meeting with the Rabbi monthly for further education about Judaism, though conversion was not discussed because I wasn't considering it. But, after attending a service at the private college I attend for some students who were killed in a car accident, I realized that I belonged in a synagogue and not in a chapel. So, I told the Rabbi that I wanted to pursue conversion. We looked at a calendar and several dates were discussed for the various parts, all within a few months. This seems fast to me. Isn't it supposed to take a year of specific study? Our Rabbi is new, we are the first congregation, so I wasn't sure. And we only have one congregation in the area.
Thanks for any insight you can give.
 

HiddenDjinn

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Since this is the Conservative DIR within Judaism you ask the question, no, it doesn't necessarily take a year of study to convert. Further, you are already a member of the community, no? The rabbi isn't doubting your sincerity in this circumstance.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I agree with Yosi.

It seems you've already spent a considerable time learning about Judaism and becoming a part of the Jewish community.

My own conversion is progressing along similar lines; I don't attend regular classes, but I've spent close to a year in the community and have discussions with my rabbi on an informal basis.

From what I understand, the one-year requirement serves a couple of purposes: to ensure you have the required knowledge to make a sound decision and to live a Jewish life, to give you time to become a vested member of the community, and to give you plenty of time to make your final decision.

In the situation you've described, it sounds like you've already done those things.
 

Dena

Active Member
Yeah, I would assume the Rabbi is considering the time you've already spent within the community. Though, if you feel it's too fast you can always tell him you need to slow down. Take all the time you need.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Hello all,

I have been involved in the local Jewish community for the past year- attending Shabbat services, holidays, Torah study, and other educational things. I became a member of the congregation and my kids attend Hebrew school. I have been meeting with the Rabbi monthly for further education about Judaism, though conversion was not discussed because I wasn't considering it. But, after attending a service at the private college I attend for some students who were killed in a car accident, I realized that I belonged in a synagogue and not in a chapel. So, I told the Rabbi that I wanted to pursue conversion. We looked at a calendar and several dates were discussed for the various parts, all within a few months. This seems fast to me. Isn't it supposed to take a year of specific study? Our Rabbi is new, we are the first congregation, so I wasn't sure. And we only have one congregation in the area.
Thanks for any insight you can give.

It doesn't always take a year, no. Especially not if you've already been easing into living a Jewish life, and making your home a Jewish home. Your rabbi may be new, but s/he has been well trained, trust me. If s/he thinks that you only need a few months, then you don't need longer.

Part of what's important to remember is that conversion is not the end of the learning process. It merely signifies the point at which the person is ready to continue their learning as a part of the Jewish People.
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
It doesn't always take a year, no. Especially not if you've already been easing into living a Jewish life, and making your home a Jewish home. Your rabbi may be new, but s/he has been well trained, trust me. If s/he thinks that you only need a few months, then you don't need longer.

Part of what's important to remember is that conversion is not the end of the learning process. It merely signifies the point at which the person is ready to continue their learning as a part of the Jewish People.

Does the converted Jew become a descendant of Abraham and seed of Isaac also or he needs another process to be a Semitic and Abrahamic ?
Thanks in advance.
 

jazzymom

Just Jewish
Does the converted Jew become a descendant of Abraham and seed of Isaac also or he needs another process to be a Semitic and Abrahamic ?
Thanks in advance.

My understanding is that the convert is a Jew in every way. We have been adopted into the family of Abraham. We are a part of the Jewish family in every way.

As a child is adopted into a family they are completely part of the family so are those of us who converted.

We take Hebrew names that include Bat/Bar Abraham V' Sara

So my name is Ora Liel Bat Abraham V' Sara

All Jews are not Semitic but all Jews are connected to Abraham.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
My understanding is that the convert is a Jew in every way. We have been adopted into the family of Abraham. We are a part of the Jewish family in every way.

As a child is adopted into a family they are completely part of the family so are those of us who converted.

We take Hebrew names that include Bat/Bar Abraham V' Sara

So my name is Ora Liel Bat Abraham V' Sara

All Jews are not Semitic but all Jews are connected to Abraham.

Yes, this is entirely correct. A person who converts to Judaism is adopted into the family of Avraham Avinu. Once conversion is complete, the Jew By Choice is 100% as Jewish as a Jew By Birth. They have exactly equal standing and weight of lineage under Jewish Law. All Jews are children of Avraham and members of his household.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Shabbat is one of the most important things that HaShem gave to us. A day not only for prayer and reflection but a day to spend with family and rest. It's important for those that are considering conversion to understand this. I would eventually hope she eventually aspires to go to the Orthodox level, but as a very wise person once said... Bemakom Ba'alei Teshuva Omdim, Ain Tzaddik Gamur Yachol La'amod.

It may not fit perfectly with those converting but I think it reminds those of us that were brought up Orthodox or even Reform that we have no room to judge, but to help others aspire to HaShem commandments and learn to grow their relationship with HaShem. Anyways, just my rambling thoughts. On a better note, how was your shabbas?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Shabbat is one of the most important things that HaShem gave to us. A day not only for prayer and reflection but a day to spend with family and rest. It's important for those that are considering conversion to understand this. I would eventually hope she eventually aspires to go to the Orthodox level, but as a very wise person once said... Bemakom Ba'alei Teshuva Omdim, Ain Tzaddik Gamur Yachol La'amod.

It may not fit perfectly with those converting but I think it reminds those of us that were brought up Orthodox or even Reform that we have no room to judge, but to help others aspire to HaShem commandments and learn to grow their relationship with HaShem. Anyways, just my rambling thoughts. On a better note, how was your shabbas?

B"H it was good, as I hope was yours.

I definitely agree that Shabbos is both precious as an experience and important to Judaism. I would never say otherwise.

But I am not a supporter of making conversions contingent on a certain style or even level of observance. Too often when we do this, we end up pushing people into intermarriage, and that ends up punishing children for their parents' errors. Which isn't to say I favor converting anyone and everyone without question, at the drop of a hat. I do think conversion should require some real commitment by the convert. But I also think that it behooves us all to assume the best, ensure a halachic conversion takes place, and trust that the convert either is properly observant, or is growing into proper observance.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
I'm glad to hear that Shabbos was great.

I see where you're coming from but I disagree. If one is not inter
ested in a Orthodox conversion, I question why are they converting in the first place? Is it not for the love of the Torah? For the love of HaShem? If you are converting for your love of Torah and for HaShem, why would you not make an absolute commitment and be recognized on all levels?

Let's compare this to becoming a lawyer. You go to University of NY. You ace the LSAT, and take one year of law school but you don't finish or take the bar exam. Are you a lawyer? No. Just like if you pick and choose how your relationship is going to be with HaShem and get half way through your study and say okay I'm ready to be called a lawyer or a Jew but I'm not willing to make a commitment all the way. I understand its a growing relationship and everyone is still learning and studying including me, including you, and including every Jew alive. That relationship must be on HaShem's terms, not ours.

 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I think the fundamental question is whether or not the Torah must be viewed by the convert as the literal word of God.
 

jazzymom

Just Jewish
I'm glad to hear that Shabbos was great.

I see where you're coming from but I disagree. If one is not inter
ested in a Orthodox conversion, I question why are they converting in the first place? Is it not for the love of the Torah? For the love of HaShem? If you are converting for your love of Torah and for HaShem, why would you not make an absolute commitment and be recognized on all levels?

Let's compare this to becoming a lawyer. You go to University of NY. You ace the LSAT, and take one year of law school but you don't finish or take the bar exam. Are you a lawyer? No. Just like if you pick and choose how your relationship is going to be with HaShem and get half way through your study and say okay I'm ready to be called a lawyer or a Jew but I'm not willing to make a commitment all the way. I understand its a growing relationship and everyone is still learning and studying including me, including you, and including every Jew alive. That relationship must be on HaShem's terms, not ours.


But the Orthodox want to make it on theirs. I am a Jew by choice and I am not Orthodox. My commitment is there and the rabbis I have worked with deemed my commitment to be there.

I am Jewish.

I studied for a period of time
I became part of 2 communities.
I made a Jewish home
I went before the Beit Din
I went into the mikvah
I accepted the to take on the mitzvot

You or other Orthodox may not accept me as Jewish but that does not matter because I am Jewish to the people and communities that matter.

What the Orthodox do is alienate many non Orthodox Jews and in doing that they push Jews away.

The non Orthodox bring people in.

It is to bad because Judaism has a history of being open to conversions and actively bringing people into Judaism.

HaShem is who I will answer to and only HaShem can judge my conversion and my actions.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
I'm glad to hear that Shabbos was great.

I see where you're coming from but I disagree. If one is not inter
ested in a Orthodox conversion, I question why are they converting in the first place? Is it not for the love of the Torah? For the love of HaShem? If you are converting for your love of Torah and for HaShem, why would you not make an absolute commitment and be recognized on all levels?

Let's compare this to becoming a lawyer. You go to University of NY. You ace the LSAT, and take one year of law school but you don't finish or take the bar exam. Are you a lawyer? No. Just like if you pick and choose how your relationship is going to be with HaShem and get half way through your study and say okay I'm ready to be called a lawyer or a Jew but I'm not willing to make a commitment all the way. I understand its a growing relationship and everyone is still learning and studying including me, including you, and including every Jew alive. That relationship must be on HaShem's terms, not ours.


My major problem with this statement is the presumption that total commitment and "Hashem's terms" are equated with Orthodoxy. I simply do not accept the ideas that only Orthodoxy is truly authentic, and only Orthodoxy represents the sole legitimate halachic and theological paradigm.

I also feel like, given the crises of intermarriage and assimilation we are facing, it is both sociologically and halachically a very bad idea for us to begin demanding things of the average convert over and above the barest minimums of the halachic forms of conversion-- not for their own sakes, but for the sake of the children they will have with their Jewish spouse (since by far and away people mostly convert to marry a Jew with whom they are already involved), who will be raised with some kind of Jewish identity, rightly or wrongly. Let's not create more chaos, confusion, and potential for conflict than is absolutely necessary by placing additional hoops to jump through for the convert.

The halachah has always been clear that when a convert stands before a bet din and accepts the yoke of Heaven and the yoke of the mitzvot, they are believed, unless there are witnesses directly to the contrary. I think it is important to go with that, and not get too picky and intrusive about what standard of observance they plan to uphold. Convert them, accept them, and then they can be offered opportunities for whatever kind of kiruv is acceptable and appropriate to their community. The convert is willing to become Jewish: that has to be a sufficient starting point. As long as they commit to learning and educating themselves, and wrestling with the theological implications of covenant membership, I think that should be sufficient, especially given that where a person is at when they convert is not necessarily where they're going to be at later on. Most converts I know and have interacted with get progressively more observant and Jewishly educated. So no sense closing doors on them or making them jump through extra hoops at the start.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
My major problem with this statement is the presumption that total commitment and "Hashem's terms" are equated with Orthodoxy. I simply do not accept the ideas that only Orthodoxy is truly authentic, and only Orthodoxy represents the sole legitimate halachic and theological paradigm.

I also feel like, given the crises of intermarriage and assimilation we are facing, it is both sociologically and halachically a very bad idea for us to begin demanding things of the average convert over and above the barest minimums of the halachic forms of conversion-- not for their own sakes, but for the sake of the children they will have with their Jewish spouse (since by far and away people mostly convert to marry a Jew with whom they are already involved), who will be raised with some kind of Jewish identity, rightly or wrongly. Let's not create more chaos, confusion, and potential for conflict than is absolutely necessary by placing additional hoops to jump through for the convert.

The halachah has always been clear that when a convert stands before a bet din and accepts the yoke of Heaven and the yoke of the mitzvot, they are believed, unless there are witnesses directly to the contrary. I think it is important to go with that, and not get too picky and intrusive about what standard of observance they plan to uphold. Convert them, accept them, and then they can be offered opportunities for whatever kind of kiruv is acceptable and appropriate to their community. The convert is willing to become Jewish: that has to be a sufficient starting point. As long as they commit to learning and educating themselves, and wrestling with the theological implications of covenant membership, I think that should be sufficient, especially given that where a person is at when they convert is not necessarily where they're going to be at later on. Most converts I know and have interacted with get progressively more observant and Jewishly educated. So no sense closing doors on them or making them jump through extra hoops at the start.

I agree wholeheartedly agree, Levite. My rabbi was always quick to remind me that my conversion was only the beginning of a life-long commitment to learning and living a Jewish life. Now that I'm Jewish, it's my responsibility to continue to incorporate halacha and Jewish traditions in my, and my family's, life.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Most converts I know and have interacted with get progressively more observant and Jewishly educated. So no sense closing doors on them or making them jump through extra hoops at the start.
I would agree 100% with that.

The non Orthodox bring people in.
I don't have statistical numbers in front of me, but my gut is telling me that organizations like Chabad bring more Jews back to Judaism than reform organizations. I also think reform organizations place to much emphasis on conforming the Torah to modern society, and blowing off what they find inconvenient. Remember, we should not focus on converting people, but focus on bringing the Torah to those that do not know it who are Jewish. It's not our job to go out and seek converts.

What the Orthodox do is alienate many non Orthodox Jews and in doing that they push Jews away.
I think the ultra-ultra orthodox do give us a bad name in some ways. I admire their devotion and dedication and their admiration to the TaNaKh, but I think they put too many barriers up and scare off Jews who may be looking to learn about their heritage and come back to HaShem. Threads like the one you showed me about the blurring sunglasses give the majority of the Orthodox a bad view. I don't disagree that they should be allowed to do that, but I don't think it should be pushed on the rest of us.

As long as they commit to learning and educating themselves, and wrestling with the theological implications of covenant membership,
Is that possible to have that type of commitment after a few months? No one can really know, but it seems too short of a period of time to me.
 

jazzymom

Just Jewish
I would agree 100% with that.

I don't have statistical numbers in front of me, but my gut is telling me that organizations like Chabad bring more Jews back to Judaism than reform organizations. I also think reform organizations place to much emphasis on conforming the Torah to modern society, and blowing off what they find inconvenient. Remember, we should not focus on converting people, but focus on bringing the Torah to those that do not know it who are Jewish. It's not our job to go out and seek converts.

I think the ultra-ultra orthodox do give us a bad name in some ways. I admire their devotion and dedication and their admiration to the TaNaKh, but I think they put too many barriers up and scare off Jews who may be looking to learn about their heritage and come back to HaShem. Threads like the one you showed me about the blurring sunglasses give the majority of the Orthodox a bad view. I don't disagree that they should be allowed to do that, but I don't think it should be pushed on the rest of us.

Is that possible to have that type of commitment after a few months? No one can really know, but it seems too short of a period of time to me.


Chabad is not interested in non Jews only non observant Jews. When I speak of bringing people in I am speaking of having a place for unaffiliated Jews, and Jews married to non Jews.

The non Orthodox are welcoming to those families where one parent is not Jewish. That makes it possible to bring the children up as Jewish environment, and gives them a place to call home.

We will guarantee the loss if we don't give them a place to grow and learn about Judaism.

These children may or may not be Jewish but if you don't make a place for them, then they will never want to be a part of the Jewish people.

I don't agree with patrilineal descent but I do agree with helping all those who have a Jewish parent being welcomed.

As to seeking converts Judaism has a history of actively seeking and bringing people to Judaism, unfortunately that stopped with the rise of Christianity and it became a crime to so and doing so could mean death for the Jew and convert.

We should not make it difficult to be Jewish, we should welcome those who are interested.

We especially should not throw road blocks in front of those who have Jewish ancestry, or are interested in being Jewish or are raising children within the Jewish community.

I don't agree that the ultra Orthodox are the only ones to give Judaism a bad name, I think those who cannot see a place for the Jew by choice or even acknowledge them as Jewish do that. I think that those who don't allow for diversity within Judaism cause harm.

The ultra Orthodox are extreme but they are not the only ones who can be extreme.

Again as to the time frame of when ones becomes a Jew most of the time even before the non Jew even attempt so contact a Rabbi they have been moving in that direction for a long time. They have been reading and learning and making decisions.

When they contact a rabbi they are looking for answers and each rabbi has requirements.

I was active in a community for 2 years prior to deciding to contact a rabbi and I had been active in the local synagogue in taking classes as a non member. I had taken Hebrew and I had taken classes on Judaism and the holidays. I was a part of 2 different communities and I had taken classes under 2 different rabbis and and I had a relationship with 4 rabbis who knew me and of my desire to learn about Judaism.

So when I started my study it took year but in fact I had already done quite a bit of work.

During that same time my children were allowed to start Hebrew school and too learned.

So for most of us the time spent with a rabbi studying did did not start our journey, it was the formal part of our journey.

We as Jews by choice understand that our learning will never end and I as you have a responsibility to continue to grow. You have had a life time to grow in your Judaism.

The Jew by choice has not had a lifetime but we have taken on the responsibility in learning and have made promises to continue our journey.

We have the right to make mistakes and to decide how to be Jewish just like you had the right.

It is much harder in many ways for us because we in many ways are walking away from a heritage and have families who might not always agree with our choices.

Add to that we also have a segment of the Jewish people telling us we aren't really Jewish or we can't really know enough.

It is really a bumpy road to becoming Jewish.
 
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