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Conversing with religious fundamentalists

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Osgart's comment was about a fundamentalist taking a strict literal interpretation of their holy book.

That is a useful way of looking at the Bible for those that don't want to believe the Bible. And, I'd say, most people don't want the Bible to be anywhere near being literally true. But then, why say it is "God's Word"? It's more like "God's sorta Word"?

Why do God's words need to be literal historic fact rather than a life giving theological narrative?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread has reminded me of the Ted Talk given by one of the Phelp's children about how she was in a sense "deprogrammed" by kindness. There's also the rather infamous story of "Jimmy" who found kindness and strength in the community of others after being ostracized for being gay and thus dishonoring the family.

So, do you think we have an obligation as a wider community to step in and try to help when we see abuse? Even if it is cloaked in a veil of freedom of religion?
I mean the outrage train certainly jumped on Brunei, but was it all just shouting into a void?

I believe we need to oppose prejudice and abuse of every kind, especially when its cloaked in the guise of religious truth. The best weapons to oppose hatred and sectarian animosities are love, justice and truth. The Teachings of the great religions have power to instill new life into every frail one, yet can be twisted for the purposes of causing division and animosity.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So when Malachi was prophesying was he talking about the coming of Jesus or was he talking about all of them... Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah?
And, I guess, the answer is that it is a symbolic "burning" up of the wicked?

The Lord of Hosts is Baha'u'llah, thus I see this is talking of our day, the day of the Lord.

I also see that every spiritual unfolding had a corresponding material effect. As there is no place such as hell with material fires and a master called Satan, I see burning is a metephor for what is produced by our neglect.

You will note fire on the holy books can be used for describing love and also neglect.

Regards Tony
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Why do you believe it would be exactly the same physical Jesus returned whose body died on the cross nearly two thousand years ago?

It is the return of The Christ or Messiah, not the same physical Jesus. Tell me, what was the apostle Paul's last name?

The one example of the a returned prophet in the New Testament is John the Baptist being the return of the prophet Elijah.

According to scripture before Christ comes, Elijah must come first. (Malachi 3:1, Malachi 4:5). When John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah he said he was not. (John 1:19-21) Yet when Christ was asked, He clearly stated John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:11-12). How do we resolve these contradictory statements? Both were telling the truth as John wasn't literally Elijah but had his spirit.



While the Body of Christ is often used by the Apostle Paul to symbolise the church, Christ used the phrase to refer to his Teachings.

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe
John 6:35-36

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 6:54-56

So with the Return of the Christ are a body of faithful believers or represent the best of humanity are enabled to soar.

Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars, Stretching his wings toward the south?
Job 39:26

'The flowers have already appeared in the land; The time has arrived for pruning the vines, And the voice of the turtledove has been heard in our land.
Solomon 2:12

You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself
Exodus 19:4



So while birds can represent unclean and unfaithful souls as in Revelation 18:2 they can also be used to symbolise. Babylon represents the corrupted word of God and Jerusalem the uncorrupted. (Revelation 21:2)

The Baha'i Faith after its emergence from Persia 175 years ago has emerged as a stong, vibrant and united community.

That is quite a couple of verses there.
Slow down, I could only digest
3 servings.

Tell me, what was the apostle Paul's last name?

While the use of given names to identify individuals is attested in the oldest historical records, the advent of surnames is a relatively recent[when?] phenomenon.[7] A four-year study led by the University of the West of England, which concluded in 2016, analysed sources dating from the 11th to the 19th century to explain the origins of the surnames in the British isles
Surname - Wikipedia

After 1066, the Norman barons introduced surnames into England, and the practice gradually spread. Initially, the identifying names were changed or dropped at will, but eventually they began to stick and to get passed on.Apr 26, 2011
BBC - Family History - What's In a Name? Your Link to the Past
I guess Paul did not have a last name or surname.
They are identified from where they live
Like: Jesus of Nazareth Matthew 26:71

So Paul would be called from Tarsus Acts 9:11; [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+21:39&version=NLT']Acts 21:39[/URL]
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Also completely unrelated but @Deeje since you're a JW, are you familiar with the Sophia and Caleb shorts produced by the Watchtower? If so, can you tell me what specific accent the father in those shorts has? It's been bugging me for years!

Sounds Spanish to me.....probably a Mexican immigrant....the legal sort. :D
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That is quite a couple of verses there.
Slow down, I could only digest
3 servings.

While the use of given names to identify individuals is attested in the oldest historical records, the advent of surnames is a relatively recent[when?] phenomenon.[7] A four-year study led by the University of the West of England, which concluded in 2016, analysed sources dating from the 11th to the 19th century to explain the origins of the surnames in the British isles
Surname - Wikipedia

After 1066, the Norman barons introduced surnames into England, and the practice gradually spread. Initially, the identifying names were changed or dropped at will, but eventually they began to stick and to get passed on.Apr 26, 2011
BBC - Family History - What's In a Name? Your Link to the Past
I guess Paul did not have a last name or surname.
They are identified from where they live
Like: Jesus of Nazareth Matthew 26:71

So Paul would be called from Tarsus Acts 9:11; Acts 21:39

I didn't mean to overwhelm you with all the bibical verses.

The point is Paul didn't have a last name and nor did Jesus. We add on names to make it clear who we are talking about. So it is Paul of Tarsus and Jesus the Christ.

It is not Jesus who returns but another Christ or Messiah. One from God, with an appointed message. The Greek word for a Jewsih Messiah was Chrstos.

In Christianity, Christ (Greek: Χριστός, Christós, meaning "the anointed one") is a title for the saviour and redeemer who would bring salvation to the whole House of Israel. Christians believe Jesus is the Israelite messiah foretold in both the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Old Testament. Christ, used by Christians as both a name and a title, is synonymous with Jesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Christianity
Christ (title) - Wikipedia

In a sense Moses was a Messiah too. If we extend the concept so too were Muhammad, Krishna and Buddha.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Sounds Spanish to me.....probably a Mexican immigrant....the legal sort. :D
lol, I’ve heard from various sources that it’s Spanish, Brazilian and even Peurto Riccan.
This will haunt me lol
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
so long as you don't countenance any questionssee... you say that...

My goodness, you are right!!!

I NEVER countenance any questions, which is why every skeptic here asks me dozens of questions in threads that go back and forth between us, and for months on end! Why, it's like I've given up on any skeptics ever trusting in God!

YOU ARE RIGHT!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
My wife has serious bipolar, as did her mother. One symptom is manic depression caused by a traumatic childhood.

There can be light at the end of the tunnel, they have to find the way to that light and support is the best option. It will always be a rocky ride.

Regards Tony
My sympathies to you as well, and the issue of finding support is indeed so very important because it's all too easy to mishandle situations and make things worse.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
In a sense Moses was a Messiah too. If we extend the concept so too were Muhammad, Krishna and Buddha.

That is something.
I have heard about this assertion that Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna and Buddha are one and the same manifestation of God.
I have to say, how is that?

I don't know Krishna nor Buddha
so I would skip on these and compare the other names you mentioned.

I know Moses
Moses is a man who became a great prophet
God performed miracles through Moses
but doubted God at the desert that is why he was not permitted to enter the promise land.
He has a wife then married a Ku****e
He was the mediator of the old covenant together with the Levites
He is God's chosen leader for the original Israel.

I know Jesus
Jesus is a man who is the Son of God
He is the reason why God made the universe
He died but on the 3rd day, God raised him from the dead
God performed miracles through Jesus
He was unmarried
He was the mediator between God and man, a new covenant
He established his church

I slightly know Muhammad
He has a god named Allah
Who he is interesting because I often watch Apostate Prophet at YouTube
Muhammad words are in the Qumran and the Hadith and Sunnah
He had 11 wives and one of which is a 9 year old.
He founded Islam

See how the 3 are entirely different?
Even their teachings are different.
Moses subscribe to observance of the Sabbath and circumcision
Jesus does not subscribe to these
Muhammad subscribe to circumcision
The mere fact that they differ they are really different individuals
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I slightly know Muhammad
He has a god named Allah
"Allah" is the name of God in Arabic and is equivalent to the Hebrew name for God "Eloheim", and both are from what theologians call the "El Tradition" passed down from ancient Sumer. However, interpretations vary between the two, but they still are very much the same God at least.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
"Allah" is the name of God in Arabic and is equivalent to the Hebrew name for God "Eloheim", and both are from what theologians call the "El Tradition" passed down from ancient Sumer. However, interpretations vary between the two, but they still are very much the same God at least.

I used to think that Allah is an Arabic word for God but after seeing the video of a former Muslim Turk
My jaw dropped. Allah is not a word for God.

 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I used to think that Allah is an Arabic word for God but after seeing the video of a former Muslim Turk
My jaw dropped. Allah is not a word for God.

It very much is another name for God and no single person nor a group of people can change that. The differences lie in sources and interpretations, both of which are variable.

The Qu'ran uses many of the narratives found in Judaism and Christianity, and do very much believe that Jesus, the apostles, and Mary existed and were good and righteous people.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Why do God's words need to be literal historic fact rather than a life giving theological narrative?

Maybe because "life giving theological narrative"
is like totally language that is meaningless or is made unintelligible by excessive use of arcane terms; ie,
nonsense.

The 'bible" does not need to be all historical fact.
Heck, it has poetry, advice, folk remedies, parables,
all sorts of stuff.

When it does relate something of significance, though,
an tells it as history, and the whole thing top to bottom
is bs, well, that dont look like the word of no stinkin'
god.

The way that Christians try to salvage "truth" from
myth like "Noah's Ark" does nothing to impress the
skeptical with anything other than their inabsility
to see the story for what it is.

But the biggest problem is the claim that any of it
is "gods word".

PEOPLE wrote down things that they say god
told them.

The assumption that some 'god" really told them that
stuff is kind of undermined by details like that
It never seems to tell two people the same thing,
keeps changing It's story.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I believe we need to oppose prejudice and abuse of every kind, especially when its cloaked in the guise of religious truth. The best weapons to oppose hatred and sectarian animosities are love, justice and truth. The Teachings of the great religions have power to instill new life into every frail one, yet can be twisted for the purposes of causing division and animosity.

You feel you have truth?
You have some way of knowing that
your statements are anything other
than chosen falsehoods in the guise
of religious truth?
I am pretty sure the boys of 911
had it too.
I doubt they feel they twisted anything.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
It very much is another name for God and no single person nor a group of people can change that. The differences lie in sources and interpretations, both of which are variable.

The Qu'ran uses many of the narratives found in Judaism and Christianity, and do very much believe that Jesus, the apostles, and Mary existed and were good and righteous people.

I would vouch for the ex-Muslim Turk.
Islam do include Jesus and Mary in the Qumran
But you will be surprised what they say about them

 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
See how the 3 are entirely different?
Even their teachings are different.
Moses subscribe to observance of the Sabbath and circumcision
Jesus does not subscribe to these
Muhammad subscribe to circumcision
The mere fact that they differ they are really different individuals

I see each of them were born in a different age and had a specific Message suited to that age from God, to give amongst a people that God chose to deliver the Message to. This is the difference we see. Each one of those Messages was not meant for but that one people, but the time was not right for all of humaity to embrace those messages. That is why the Day of the Lord is Prophecy, where there will be one fold and one Shepherd and God's Name will be One.

Now we look at how they are One and Christ taught us how this is so by the virgin birth. We know Jesus was born of Mary but Jesus is born of the Holy Spirit, this is the station of 'Christ' (annointed one). We are all born of the Human Spirit and need faith to be born again, our connection to the Holy Spirit.

Thus all God's Messengers are Annointed, born of the Holy Spirit and in that way they teach of the same Truth and all share of the same purpose.

It has now been explained in detail in this age.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why do God's words need to be literal historic fact rather than a life giving theological narrative?
Well, you and me don't. You need them to be symbolic, and I think they are probably myth and legend. But what about Jews and Christians? If God's Word can't be trusted to tell the truth about history, who can you trust? And if it's just a symbolic story, then the Jews have no history... and no history with their God.

They can't say "Yes, when our forefathers left Egypt and wandered in the wilderness..." "When Moses went up the mountain and brought the commandments." "When David killed Goliath..." None of it is real. All that they were supposed to do with those stories is figure out the symbolic message? Yeah, God does great things... symbolically. I don't think so. I think the stories were meant to be taken as literal. It gave great meaning to them. And, it is still giving them meaning.

But, when you were a Christian, how literal did you take the Bible? And, how did your Pastors and teachers teach you to take it? I always harbored some doubts. But in Church meetings, who can openly talk about doubting the Bible?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
My goodness, you are right!!!

I NEVER countenance any questions, which is why every skeptic here asks me dozens of questions in threads that go back and forth between us, and for months on end! Why, it's like I've given up on any skeptics ever trusting in God!

YOU ARE RIGHT!
Responding to questions is different to countenancing questions. Thanks for the snark though.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I didn't mean to overwhelm you with all the bibical verses.

The point is Paul didn't have a last name and nor did Jesus. We add on names to make it clear who we are talking about. So it is Paul of Tarsus and Jesus the Christ.

It is not Jesus who returns but another Christ or Messiah. One from God, with an appointed message. The Greek word for a Jewsih Messiah was Chrstos.

In Christianity, Christ (Greek: Χριστός, Christós, meaning "the anointed one") is a title for the saviour and redeemer who would bring salvation to the whole House of Israel. Christians believe Jesus is the Israelite messiah foretold in both the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Old Testament. Christ, used by Christians as both a name and a title, is synonymous with Jesus

Christ (title) - Wikipedia

In a sense Moses was a Messiah too. If we extend the concept so too were Muhammad, Krishna and Buddha.

And Cyrus was called the anointed one.

King James Bible Isaiah 45:1

Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
 
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