Conversing with religious fundamentalists

[MJFlores]

None of the above. but I am not willing to give the exact location of where I live. The church does use "_____ _____ Church of Christ" as its name.

The Bible and Tradition, the latter of which Paul said we should also follow.

Tradition itself is divided into two parts, namely early Tradition and on-going Tradition, the latter of which was promised by Jesus who said that he would guide the Church until the end of time.

See above, although I don't know with any certainty what you might be referring to here.

I don't know what you mean by "first example". In which post # did this supposedly occur?

Sure didn't have a clue where you live.
Well if you say - non of the above
Then, it wasn't the church were I belong to.

Sure been there - tradition and sacraments [you forgot to mention that]

 

[metis]

My son has it too. He doesn't communicate with us. We just sit and wait for the bad news to come. I won't be surprised.

So sorry to read this, and we're going through this with our granddaughter, although she does visit us at least once a week. She's a lot brighter than I was and am as she's a junior majoring in organic chemistry, and she has an overall g.p.a. of 3.95. And this is part of the problem as well as she's a perfectionist, thus putting too much pressure on herself. I've been working with her to try and get her to back off a bit on her intensity but to no avail.

 

[metis]

Sure been there - tradition and sacraments [you forgot to mention that]

I mentioned "tradition", but the sacraments are a byproduct of both scripture and tradition.

 

[Vinayaka]

So sorry to read this, and we're going through this with our granddaughter, although she does visit us at least once a week. She's a lot brighter than I was and am as she's a junior majoring in organic chemistry, and she has an overall g.p.a. of 3.95. And this is part of the problem as well as she's a perfectionist, thus putting too much pressure on herself. I've been working with her to try and get her to back off a bit on her intensity but to no avail.

A lot of folks with bipolar disorder are very intelligent. Too much thinking. My son is too. One of my wife's cousins, a researcher in a specialty field, committed suicide at about age 45. Best wishes towards you, and her. But there's not a whole lot we can do either.

 

[metis]

Best wishes towards you, and her.

Thanks, and ditto, my friend.

 

[Audie]

I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

The worldview that they all share is this
faith that there is a master of the universe
with which they are obliged to deal in some way.

What profound / bright line distinction is
there between a fundy and any other
religious person?

 

[siti]

According to scripture before Christ comes, Elijah must come first. (Malachi 3:1, Malachi 4:5)

When John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah he spoke the truth and said he was not. (John 1:19-21)

Yet when Christ was asked, He clearly stated John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:11-12)

So who was lying, Christ or John the Baptist? Both were telling the truth as John wasn't literally Elijah but had his spirit.

So God both had a Son and didn't have a son.

God did not have a son like you or I would have a son.

As Muhammad said:
It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
Quran 19:35

The Gospel writers produced a theological account, not one of literal history. The Sonship of Christ is a profound Divine mystery.

I'm comfortable with Jesus being both the Son of God and not the son of god, as I am with John the Baptist being both Elijah and not being Elijah.

Well John the Baptist's obviously symbolic identity as "Elijah" is entirely beside the point. It is perfectly obvious that Christians believe Jesus to be the "firstborn", "only-begotten" "Son of the living God" by nature - i.e. the only true and real son of God. This belief is fundamental to mainstream Christianity and anathema to Islam. There is no way that any Christian unfamiliar with the peculiarities of the Baha'i faith would understand that when you say you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you don't mean what they mean. That is certainly dishonest IMO. My question is, is it wrong? Or better, when is it OK and when is it not OK to allow one's religious beliefs to be misleadingly misinterpreted on purpose? In fact, I think this is a fairly important question so I think I will probably start a new thread - it is a bit tangential to this thread I suppose.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well John the Baptist's obviously symbolic identity as "Elijah" is entirely beside the point. It is perfectly obvious that Christians believe Jesus to be the "firstborn", "only-begotten" "Son of the living God" by nature - i.e. the only true and real son of God. This belief is fundamental to mainstream Christianity and anathema to Islam. There is no way that any Christian unfamiliar with the peculiarities of the Baha'i faith would understand that when you say you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you don't mean what they mean. That is certainly dishonest IMO. My question is, is it wrong? Or better, when is it OK and when is it not OK to allow one's religious beliefs to be misleadingly misinterpreted on purpose? In fact, I think this is a fairly important question so I think I will probably start a new thread - it is a bit tangential to this thread I suppose.

A reasoned and measured approach to biblical scripture supports the a more profound meaning to Jesus being the Son of God rather than literalism. The insistence on traditional beliefs about Jesus Sonship is likely based on the Nicene Creed along with the trinity and Divinity of Christ. Modern biblical scholarship rightly questions long held assumptions. That being said the nature of Christ Himself along with His Relationship to God is at the heart of the Gospels. The Baha’i Faith affirms these core Teachings but moves beyond the murmur of sounds and syllables.

Do feel free to start a new thread and to tag me if you like.

 

[siti]

The Baha’i Faith affirms these core Teachings but moves beyond the murmur of sounds and syllables.

That's just a fancy way of saying you don't believe it means what it says.

And again, you have dodged the real question, which was not about what the Bible really means when it calls Jesus "Son of God" but ...(and this time I'll separate it so it stands out clearly)...

...is it dishonest to suggest to a Biblical literalist that you believe as they do (e.g. in the Son of God) do when you know very well that you do not believe as they do at all and they would likely not discern the difference unless it were pointed out?​

 

[Vinayaka]

A reasoned and measured approach ....

Many folks say this about their side of the argument, insinuating the other view isn't reasoned or measured. It's a fancy way of saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." What makes you think the other side didn't put a lot of thought into it?

 

[paarsurrey]

My son has it too. He doesn't communicate with us. We just sit and wait for the bad news to come. I won't be surprised.

Sorry to learn that. I pray/wish that he gets cured from the disease.
Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Many folks say this about their side of the argument, insinuating the other view isn't reasoned or measured. It's a fancy way of saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." What makes you think the other side didn't put a lot of thought into it?

This was the entire foundation of the Christain Faith.

Many Jewish divines spent their lifetime in reasoned and measured thought, but then rejected Christ, wheras a fisherman accepted Him. The Fundamentalist tied to a specitlfic meaning, did not see, but the heart of a fisherman did. Then we ask who gave that capacity to the fisherman, was it his own learning?

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's just a fancy way of saying you don't believe it means what it says.

And again, you have dodged the real question, which was not about what the Bible really means when it calls Jesus "Son of God" but ...(and this time I'll separate it so it stands out clearly)...

...is it dishonest to suggest to a Biblical literalist that you believe as they do (e.g. in the Son of God) do when you know very well that you do not believe as they do at all and they would likely not discern the difference unless it were pointed out?​

I am a Baha’i. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. It is a core Christian doctrine that is believed and understood in diverse ways across the spectrum of Christians and the Baha’i understanding falls within that spectrum. I never claimed to interpret or understand Jesus being the Son of God as a literalist or fundamentalist, nor do I see the need to qualify my belief unless asked. It’s already clear as the noon day sun that I don’t view the Gospels as my acquaintance does and I did state this earlier to him. I’d also been clear that I was on the interfaith council and spoke positively about other faiths, specifically Islam. I think he knows I have a very different take on the Gospels including the Son of God. It’s a conversation at the side of a football game with our sons playing on the same team.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have a son and a granddaughter who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and we've been dealing with this for some 40 years now, and it's tough let me tell ya. Both tried to commit suicide on multiple occasions.

My son has it too. He doesn't communicate with us. We just sit and wait for the bad news to come. I won't be surprised.

My wife has serious bipolar, as did her mother. One symptom is manic depression caused by a traumatic childhood.

There can be light at the end of the tunnel, they have to find the way to that light and support is the best option. It will always be a rocky ride.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Sorry to learn that. I pray/wish that he gets cured from the disease.
Regards

Thanks. At the moment there is no cure, but certain drugs work somewhat. I'm detached from the whole thing. Stuff happens in life.

 

[Vinayaka]

My wife has serious bipolar, as did her mother. One symptom is manic depression caused by a traumatic childhood.

There can be light at the end of the tunnel, they have to find the way to that light and support is the best option. It will always be a rocky ride.

Regards Tony

It's 'fine' with me. Has to happen to somebody. Stuff happens. Just last week a good friend had kidney failure, and he just refused treatment. Happy to go, he was. Very different paradigms.

 

[siti]

It’s a conversation at the side of a football game with our sons playing on the same team.

...that you felt was important enough to highlight in a religious debate forum by starting a thread discussing how to converse with religious fundamentalists. So my question is quite pertinent...I think. Is it OK to be dishonest/less than candid in representing one's beliefs in such circumstances? If there is no common ground, why try to pretend there is? Why not just change the subject and talk about the game?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So my question is quite pertinent...I think. Is it OK to be dishonest/less than candid in representing one's beliefs in such circumstances? If there is no common ground, why try to pretend there is?

There is common ground, it is called the Bible, thus I see Adrian made a statement about what is recorded in the Bible.

Thus if one then wanted further explanation, one could ask, or leave it how they wish to see the subject.

If asked an answer could be given like this provisional translation of talks given by Abdul'baha;

The question asked;

"..Pasteur Monnier: If you permit us, we would like to ask a question: As we are students of theology, and in the rank of clergy, we would like to know your belief about Christ; who he was and what he was?..."

Abdu'l-Bahá: Our belief in regard to Christ is exactly what is recorded in the New Testament [Hamán tawr kih dar Injíl madhkúr ast, lákin má sharh mídahím]; however, we elucidate this matter and do not speak literally...."
.
If one chooses on this OP they can also look at this link, 5 questions were answered;

'Abdu'l-Bahá on Christ and Christianity

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

So sorry to read this, and we're going through this with our granddaughter, although she does visit us at least once a week. She's a lot brighter than I was and am as she's a junior majoring in organic chemistry, and she has an overall g.p.a. of 3.95. And this is part of the problem as well as she's a perfectionist, thus putting too much pressure on herself. I've been working with her to try and get her to back off a bit on her intensity but to no avail.

A lot of folks with bipolar disorder are very intelligent. Too much thinking. My son is too. One of my wife's cousins, a researcher in a specialty field, committed suicide at about age 45. Best wishes towards you, and her. But there's not a whole lot we can do either.

My wife has serious bipolar, as did her mother. One symptom is manic depression caused by a traumatic childhood.

There can be light at the end of the tunnel, they have to find the way to that light and support is the best option. It will always be a rocky ride.

Regards Tony

Thank you for sharing your personal experiences with family members and relatives with bipolar disorder. It can be an extremely challenging disorder for everyone. My mother had bipolar disorder and sadly passed away at age 57 of lung cancer (she was a smoker). My first hand experience of this disorder from my mother contributed to choosing the field of psychiatry in medicine for a number of years. I firmly believe most people with this disorder can be helped if they are willing to accept it. However all too often there is a tendancy to reject help, not take medications and ignore the early warning signs and triggers for relapse. Consequently family members and friends can bear the brunt of it too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You should be aware that there are other people dead and living who claimed to be Jesus Christ.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

We have our very own "claimant" and he has some following.
Unbelievable that people would fall for his claims!

Apollo Quiboloy (1950–) is the founder and leader of a Philippines-based Restorationist church, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, The Name Above Every Name, Inc. He has made claims that he is the "Appointed Son of God".

Unbelievable, isn't it?

If you check the list you will find the founder of my faith.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matthew 24:28