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Conversing with religious fundamentalists

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've had an experience of visitation from Baha'u'llah when I read the tablet of visitation around the time I became a Baha'i. Later I had dreams with both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. :)

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts of the Apostles 2:16-17

Well they are some dreams :D

You must be 3 x happy, happy, happy, full of joy. :);)

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So the Christians assert the literal Sonship of Christ, the Muslims rejects it outright, Shoghi pretends to believe both at the same time by suggesting that neither really meant what they said - and you follow Shoghi's example of disingenuity by pretending that you agree with a fundamentalist Christian whom you know very well does not share your interpretation.

So, essentially, you are advocating dishonesty in religious discourse - aren't you? How else would you characterize it? "Interfaith"? No wonder the fundies don't want in on that? They'd never know whether you were trying to pull another fast one on them would they?

According to scripture before Christ comes, Elijah must come first. (Malachi 3:1, Malachi 4:5)

When John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah he spoke the truth and said he was not. (John 1:19-21)

Yet when Christ was asked, He clearly stated John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:11-12)

So who was lying, Christ or John the Baptist? Both were telling the truth as John wasn't literally Elijah but had his spirit.

So God both had a Son and didn't have a son.

God did not have a son like you or I would have a son.

As Muhammad said:
It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
Quran 19:35

The Gospel writers produced a theological account, not one of literal history. The Sonship of Christ is a profound Divine mystery.

I'm comfortable with Jesus being both the Son of God and not the son of god, as I am with John the Baptist being both Elijah and not being Elijah.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Here is another definition that is similar:

Definition of FUNDAMENTALISM

So it can refer specifically to Christian fundamentalism where the Bible is interpreted literally and that is fundamental the Christian way of life. The word fundamentalism can be used more generally applied to other religions such as Islam or beyond that political movements.

The reference to twentieth century Protestantism is very relevant here as it is applicable to both my acquaintances beliefs and the Jehovah Witnesses belief. Interestingly, although both these belief systems could rightly be described as fundamentalist, both would reject the other outright. See the problem?

Actually I don't see a problem at all. If God is doing the choosing, then no matter what belief system we have chosen, it will either meet with God's approval or it won't. We choose the belief that appeals to our heart....but if it fails to be the one approved by God...it won't matter. We will not get the reward offered for our obedience to God's laws and our agreement to do his will.

The issue isn't about whether or not we apply principles from our respective faiths wholeheartedly. Rather its about how we arrive at such beliefs in the first place.

Yes I agree. Why we accept one set of religious values over another is what tells God all about us. We show him who we really are....but in many cases this will not result in an expected outcome. Unless we are "doing the will of the Father" the judge of all, Jesus Christ will not recognize us as ever having belonged to him. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Its not so much doubting what it says, as doubting what it means. Christianity has thousands of different sects. Most would see the Bible as authoritative and authentic. Most would also disagree with the interpretation of a sizebale number of believers within differing sects. So Christianity has developed a kind of tribalism where many sects not only see themselves possessing the one truth compared to other religions, but also compared to other groups within Christendom. Consequently, Christianity as a whole looks contradictory, weak and divided.

From the scriptures, it is evident that God feels the same way. Jesus gave us the parable about "the wheat and the weeds".....both growing together in the same world.....one sown by Jesus and the other sown by the devil. One is a poor imitation of the other. Since "few" are on the' cramped and narrow road to life'....that means that the majority of those "Christians" are weedy imitations. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Early Christianity relied to a large extent on outstanding orators or preachers like Paul. This tradition remains very important to my acquiantance who upholds Billy Graham as the standard bearer of the Christian Faith. The Mega-Churches take this approach too. What is required now are more participatory approaches that empower people at the grass roots. Christianity is now rapidly losing ground in the West.

All Christians are under obligation to preach the Kingdom message. It was not dependent upon just itinerant preachers like Paul, but on all who carried Christ's message to their neighbors.

He commanded his disciples.....

“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city." (Matthew 10:11-15, Luke 10:1-3)

Their ministry was conducted "house to house" (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20) This was a personal message taken directly to the people in their own homes.

What worked two thousand years ago is not necessarily applicable today and that is the whole problem with Biblical literalism. The world has changed and Christanity is confused and in disarray. Many Christians often struggle to have the world embracing view required for the current age.

Because this situation was foretold, we have an expected outcome....one that is NOT all embracing.

I do not believe that God accepts all religions as mere expressions of his will in different time periods. He kept his own people screened off from the world so that they would not "embrace" other ways of religious thinking. When they did, he punished them. If he was 'all embracing', why would he do that?

So as Jesus enabled His followers to build on what had gone on before and established a new Covenant, so the Baha'i Faith builds on religious traditions of the past. Baha'u'llah has reframed the message of the Prophets of Old and adapted it for our current age.

Baha'u'llah may be your prophet but he is nothing to me. His words are meaningless to those taught by Christ Jesus.....but you are as free as I am to choose your belief system for whatever reason you need to.

Therein lies another problem. Other Christians will make the similar claims to have studied the Bible for years, yet come to very different conclusions.

Again, I see no problem. The choice of who is a "sheep" and who is a "goat" is not mine to make. Jesus is the one who determines such things. Whatever conclusions people come to is their affair. Jesus knows who are "doing the will of of the Father" and those who just think they are. (Matthew 7:21-23)

What sets the JWs apart from other Christians is their insistence on being the sole possessor and arbitrator of religious truth.

That set Jesus and his disciples apart too. There is only one truth and we either have it or we don't. God reveals his truth to those who have a heart in agreement with his own. No matter how much we protest about any of it...it won't change the end result. We are at this moment choosing our own destiny.

Over the last two years I have seen you make better attempts to engage with those of different faiths and that is a positive thing. I do think you struggle to properly appreciate and understand other religions and in that regard your JW faith does you a disservice.

You will forgive me if I disagree....I understand other faiths very well.....it is part of the process of elimination that we all must make when determining the right path to follow. According to Jesus, there are only two roads.....one leads to life...the other leads to death. It isn't rocket science.....we are all on either one path or the other....only the judge knows which one. All we have to distinguish them is that one is cramped and difficult...the other is easy and imposes no restrictions. We choose the path...so we choose the destination.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Matthew 24:26 New Living Translation (NLT)
“So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it!

Should you believe it? Matthew 24:23; Mark 13:21


Luke 17:23 New Living Translation (NLT)
People will tell you, ‘Look, there is the Son of Man,’ or ‘Here he is,’ but don’t go out and follow them.

These verses are simply a record of the same utterance but recalled differently by the authors of the Gospels of Luke and Matthew. They form part of Christ's last sermon known as the Olivet discourse. Of course Christ was warning people from following other Christs. Christ (Jesus) had already come. But that is exactly what the Jews did. They followed a false Christ named Simon Bar Kokhba who led them on a failed revolt against the Romans.

Simon bar Kokhba - Wikipedia
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
When John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah he spoke the truth and said he was not. (John 1:19-21)

Yet when Christ was asked, He clearly stated John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:11-12)

So who was lying, Christ or John the Baptist?
The Gospel of John is purposefully made up as an IQ morality test for mankind, there are over 30+ contradictions...

It is thus ludicrous that someone who accepts a majority of texts, could ask such a condescending question about the ambassadors of God, rather then recognize the texts are prophesied to be corrupted. :confused:

Malachi 4:4-6 means the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28) was placed on them, and so they've tried to portray it never happened in the Gospel of John, by declaring John the Baptist to not be who he said he was...

Take into account John the Baptist in the Synoptic Gospels literally makes reference to him being the person "making the way of the Lord in the wilderness" (Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4), that is Elijah's role.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I was just thinking @Deeje how we had been discussing our respective faiths on your earlier thread, and then the Christchurch massacre required my attention. Our city came together united in prayer and to support our Muslim community.

A city united

The Dunedin Interfaith Council played an important part of that.

The momemtum for my community, city and the world as a whole is about diverse people working together to create peace. That is how I see it.

It is good we have the opportunity to continue where we left off. You are more than welcome to contribute to this thread. What title could be more appropriate than 'Conversing with religious fundamentalists'? :D You are a self proclaimed religious fundamentalist and I am a Baha'i.

Actually I don't see a problem at all. If God is doing the choosing, then no matter what belief system we have chosen, it will either meet with God's approval or it won't. We choose the belief that appeals to our heart....but if it fails to be the one approved by God...it won't matter. We will not get the reward offered for our obedience to God's laws and our agreement to do his will.

I don't believe God picks one faith and turns His back on all the others. Blessings come to us when we both recognise His Prophets and follow His Teachings. Ultimately we must do both and neither are acceptable without the other.

I don't see Christian anymore blessed than other Faith adherents, and I don't see JWs as anymore blessed than other Christians. Although I disagree with many JW beliefs I see the JWs as Christians.

Yes I agree. Why we accept one set of religious values over another is what tells God all about us. We show him who we really are....but in many cases this will not result in an expected outcome. Unless we are "doing the will of the Father" the judge of all, Jesus Christ will not recognize us as ever having belonged to him. (Matthew 7:21-23)

So how do we know who is doing the will of our Lord and those who truly belong to Him? If we go to the earlier verses the answer is clearer.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:16-20

What are the Good fruits? St Paul in Galatians 5:22-23 describes these:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Peoples from all Faiths bear good fruit.

From the scriptures, it is evident that God feels the same way. Jesus gave us the parable about "the wheat and the weeds".....both growing together in the same world.....one sown by Jesus and the other sown by the devil. One is a poor imitation of the other. Since "few" are on the' cramped and narrow road to life'....that means that the majority of those "Christians" are weedy imitations. (Matthew 7:13-14)

When I hear you judging your fellow Christians so harshly I think Matthew 7:1-4

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?


Because this situation was foretold, we have an expected outcome....one that is NOT all embracing.

I do not believe that God accepts all religions as mere expressions of his will in different time periods. He kept his own people screened off from the world so that they would not "embrace" other ways of religious thinking. When they did, he punished them. If he was 'all embracing', why would he do that?

He would embrace all because He has Manifested Himself to all. He is the Creator of all and loves all. For Baha'is He has manifested Himself through Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Its time to move beyond an OT view of the world and religion.

Baha'u'llah may be your prophet but he is nothing to me. His words are meaningless to those taught by Christ Jesus.....but you are as free as I am to choose your belief system for whatever reason you need to.

And yet you claim to understand other faiths very well but see them as being meaningless. You don't see the contradiction?

Again, I see no problem. The choice of who is a "sheep" and who is a "goat" is not mine to make. Jesus is the one who determines such things. Whatever conclusions people come to is their affair. Jesus knows who are "doing the will of of the Father" and those who just think they are. (Matthew 7:21-23)

It is exactly Gods judgment to make, not for anyone else.

That set Jesus and his disciples apart too. There is only one truth and we either have it or we don't. God reveals his truth to those who have a heart in agreement with his own. No matter how much we protest about any of it...it won't change the end result. We are at this moment choosing our own destiny.

You will forgive me if I disagree....I understand other faiths very well.....it is part of the process of elimination that we all must make when determining the right path to follow. According to Jesus, there are only two roads.....one leads to life...the other leads to death. It isn't rocket science.....we are all on either one path or the other....only the judge knows which one. All we have to distinguish them is that one is cramped and difficult...the other is easy and imposes no restrictions. We choose the path...so we choose the destination.

I choose to work towards peace and build unity with the little time I have on this earth. I choose to minster to the needs of humanity as it suffers now (Matthew 25:31-46).
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Did you have that beer? Feel better now? I had to do three shots of tequila. But, I'm better now.
No, I don't have any in the house. Tequila ... wow. I only tasted that stuff once. Some rock concert, was handed a wineskin flask thing ... thought it was wine, but got surprised at the tongue.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This doesn't apply to liberals who uphold their sincerely held beleifs wholeheartedly, for example - the sincerely held belief that marriage equality applies to gay people


How many liberals have you met that were able to be swayed away from their belief in marriage equality at the "least whim or fancy"? Clearly you are just constructing a strawman here, yet speaking for myslef I can say we are not all too blind to see that liberals have deeply held convictions wholeheartedly and are not "wishy washy" in their beliefs.


Lots of folks have incredibly strong convictions. One major difference amongst us is how much we're willing to talk about those strong convictions. That is on a spectrum. Some folks will tell anyone and everyone, whilst others will tell no one.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So the Christians assert the literal Sonship of Christ, the Muslims rejects it outright, Shoghi pretends to believe both at the same time by suggesting that neither really meant what they said - and you follow Shoghi's example of disingenuity by pretending that you agree with a fundamentalist Christian whom you know very well does not share your interpretation.

So, essentially, you are advocating dishonesty in religious discourse - aren't you? How else would you characterize it? "Interfaith"? No wonder the fundies don't want in on that? They'd never know whether you were trying to pull another fast one on them would they?

I've always preferred straight up, tell it like it is, what you believe, than any sort of deception. I remember ISKCON back in the few years they switched from their robes to western suits and ties, pretending to be some sort of international charity helping kids. That blew my mind. I didn't give them a cent. But when they danced on the street in dhotis and kurtas, I'd donate. Sneaky deception is just plain wrong, to me.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
These verses are simply a record of the same utterance but recalled differently by the authors of the Gospels of Luke and Matthew. They form part of Christ's last sermon known as the Olivet discourse. Of course Christ was warning people from following other Christs. Christ (Jesus) had already come. But that is exactly what the Jews did. They followed a false Christ named Simon Bar Kokhba who led them on a failed revolt against the Romans.

Simon bar Kokhba - Wikipedia

You should be aware that there are other people dead and living who claimed to be Jesus Christ.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

We have our very own "claimant" and he has some following.
Unbelievable that people would fall for his claims!

Apollo Quiboloy (1950–) is the founder and leader of a Philippines-based Restorationist church, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, The Name Above Every Name, Inc. He has made claims that he is the "Appointed Son of God".


Unbelievable, isn't it?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You should be aware that there are other people dead and living who claimed to be Jesus Christ.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

We have our very own "claimant" and he has some following.
Unbelievable that people would fall for his claims!

Apollo Quiboloy (1950–) is the founder and leader of a Philippines-based Restorationist church, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, The Name Above Every Name, Inc. He has made claims that he is the "Appointed Son of God".


Unbelievable, isn't it?
Ant that list is just the ones we've heard of. There are many more in health care facilities for grandiose delusion.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes there are some unknowns.


These "Jesuses" are nuts.

It's sad. I have a friend who is a psychiatrist at an institution. I've asked him about how we should relate when encountering such a person, and there are also some who go 'in and 'out' of it with bipolar disorder. He said, "don't confront, but don't agree either, best to just listen, and not judge'. Because you can make the situation worse, I try to follow his advice, and not say much.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What is the Catholic's basis of faith?
The Bible and Tradition, the latter of which Paul said we should also follow.

Tradition itself is divided into two parts, namely early Tradition and on-going Tradition, the latter of which was promised by Jesus who said that he would guide the Church until the end of time.

Where do you think Catholics learn about Jesus?
See above, although I don't know with any certainty what you might be referring to here.

As I have shown you the first example was knocked off.
I don't know what you mean by "first example". In which post # did this supposedly occur?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's sad. I have a friend who is a psychiatrist at an institution. I've asked him about how we should relate when encountering such a person, and there are also some who go 'in and 'out' of it with bipolar disorder. He said, "don't confront, but don't agree either, best to just listen, and not judge'. Because you can make the situation worse, I try to follow his advice, and not say much.
I have a son and a granddaughter who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and we've been dealing with this for some 40 years now, and it's tough let me tell ya. Both tried to commit suicide on multiple occasions.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I had a conversation with a Christian fundamentalist over the weekend. It was the first game of football (soccer) for one of my sons. I was pleased to see the return of one of our teams best players who had decided not to play last season but really wanted to return. However the father of the boy often keeps to himself and tends not to associate too much with the other parents. I initiated conversation by saying how pleased I was to see them both again. After a while conversation turned to the recent Christchurch Terrorist attack. I mentioned I was on the cities interfaith council and how we had been involved with supporting the Muslims in our community. At this point he felt compelled that He was a follower of Jesus Christ and he had seen first hand the dark side of Islam. He had been an atheist up until 15 years ago, when Jesus Himself had appeared before him and so he gave himself over to the Lord. There were odd moments where he would introduce monologues with the usual 'only through Jesus can we be saved' rhetoric. I zoned out and feeling somewhat uncomfortable wondered if it would be possible to have any kind of meaningful and constructive conversation with the guy. Long story short, I managed to find some areas of common ground between us and we eventually shook hands, wished each other well and parted ways amicably.

Sometimes I wonder about the value in talking to fundamentalists but recall many years ago I too was a Christian fundamentalist. I recall some of the helpful conversations that enabled me to see another way, a way that much better suited my beliefs and temperament. America has many more Christian fundamentalists than my small and liberal country. I was wondering about other's experiences with fundamentalism. Maybe you are a fundamentalist in which case, how is it for you talking to others with strong beliefs with those who don't share your worldview?

It's great for me:

* I have real answers to real and existential problems
* I listen
* I show love
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I have a son and a granddaughter who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and we've been dealing with this for some 40 years now, and it's tough let me tell ya. Both tried to commit suicide on multiple occasions.
My son has it too. He doesn't communicate with us. We just sit and wait for the bad news to come. I won't be surprised.
 
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