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Featured Conversing with religious fundamentalists

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I don't think we are understanding each other somehow. I'm not advocating polygamy or adultery. My faith teaches monogamy and no sex before marriage.

    The point I'm making is while both the Bible and Quran may both implicitly support monogamy, neither explicitly forbids it.

    Its all very well criticising Muhammad for having more than one wife but both Moses and David who God chose as bearers of a Divine Message had more than one wife too.
     
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  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    And thank God, I am not a Jew.
    Otherwise the burden of defending Moses and David rest on my shoulders.;)
     
  3. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    As a Christian you need to defend not only the New Testament characters and their Teachings, but the Old Testament Characters too. The God of the Old Testament is exactly the same God as the New Testament. It is a New Covenant though (Jeremiah 31:31) and that is the point. Although God does not change (Malachi 3:6) His Message to humanity does according to the needs of the age. That is why His Message through Moses was so different from what He taught through Christ.
     
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  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Well, I learned a lot from this forum - including this one about David having a lot of wives.
    More wives than the days in a week.

    Been staring at a bible verse about King David:

    1 Chronicles 14:3 New International Version (NIV)

    In Jerusalem David took more wives and became the father of more sons and daughters.

    Couldn't believe its there, but it is there.
    One YouTuber gave a possible explanation for all of these things



    And he makes sense.

    King David had 8 named wives in the Bbile
    I know the Old Testament Bible does not teach polygamy
    I believe this is King David's chosen personal path to take
     
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  5. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Snarky is as snarky does, I guess, my mama always said, "Life is like a bunch of skeptics. You ALWAYS know what you're gonna get!"
     
  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    You were serious? They did think you were possessed? Well, did it work did the demon of lust leave your body? Actually, what year was that '85? Oh my God, I think that's when the demon of lust entered me! Oh well, it's gone now, but boy did I have some fun for a couple of years. But, for sure, forget those kinds of Christians, I'm glad you became a Baha'i.
     
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  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So what is the actual event that inspired the resurrection stories? The NT writers say that he was seen by hundreds of people that, at the time of the writing of the gospels, were still alive and could verify it. They say they touched him. That he ate with them. That he said he was not a ghost but had a body of flesh and bone. Luke says in Acts that Jesus showed himself to be alive with many proofs. So, no matter what Baha'is say, Christians say the resurrection happened and it's true. Baha'is say that no, it is not true. He didn't physically rise from the dead. He is dead and gone. That part of the Baha'i story is much more easily believed by people that aren't Christians. But, for Fundy Christians, a Baha'i can't expect to become friends with them if that is what they believe about the absolute, number one belief of Christian fundamentalists.
     
  8. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    We both did things in our younger years we wouldn't do now. It seems crazy looking back at some of the beliefs and attitudes of my fellow Christians. The Baha'i Faith works for me and I've been a Baha'i for nearly 30 years. I consider myself no more or less a Christian than any other Christain, though of course many Christians wouldn't see it that way, especially in America. I think agnosticism while keeping a keen interest in both Christianity and the Baha'i Faith works for you. Its all a journey. :)

    Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other.


    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 20
     
  9. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    I was recently rereading Dune by Frank Herbert. In it a line caught my attention "the mystery of life is not something to be explained but a reality to be experienced". I tend to think in those kind of terms, and if someone doesnt understand that, it's extremely clear that they aren't really going to get me at all. I just treat that as normal and role on.
     
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  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I am too much of an iconoclast to be considered a fundamentalist. However I do believe in the fundamentals of the Christian religion. I can't understand how living in sin and missing out on eternal life seems better to you.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I just see liberals as wanting to free themselves from the constraint of the Lordship of Jesus.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe confidence for one's beliefs is often mistaken for conceit.
     
  13. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Given your previously stated beliefs about Muhammad I wouldn’t consider you a fundamentalist. The difference between us is belief and rejection of Baha’u’llah. How do you reconcile the fundamentals of your Christian belief with Islam?
     
  14. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    Resurrection stories were a dime a dozen in the ancient world.

    Christianity has all the hallmarks of being cobbled together from other religionsof the time. The gospels
    Were not even independently written.
     
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  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    But the resurrection of Jesus is the most important event in what they believe to be history. If it didn't happen... If Christians just borrowed the idea from pagan religions or made it up, then Christianity is based on a lie. Fundy Christians, however, have lots of fairly good arguments as to why the resurrection of Jesus did happen. The Baha'i argument is that all the verses, that talk about Jesus appearing and talking with his disciples and letting them touch and then say that he is not a ghost because he has flesh and bone, all those verses... Baha'i say are all symbolic.

    For all the things I like about the Baha'i Faith, that is probably, for me, the weakest argument. I'd rather them say the resurrection was a made up hoax, then say it never happened in the real world... but that God, I guess, inspired the gospel writers to come up with a symbolic fictional story? No, I don't think so. I don't think they were trying to be symbolic at all. I think they were trying to be very literal and believed, and meant for others to believe that Jesus had come back to life. But then, if the writers made it, then it's just a lie.

    But for those that believe it is a lie, or for a Baha'i that believes that Jesus rose "symbolically", it still isn't going to help having a very good relationship or conversation with a Fundy Christian.
     
  16. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    What you said is too vague, if by lordship of Jesus you mean the rule of Jesus, one could just as easily say something equally ludicrous like, “fundamentalist Christians just want to free themselves from the lordship of Muhammad”.

    If on the other hand you meant that liberals want to free themselves from Jesus being God over them, there is no need for want, as Jesus is not God except for in the imagination of the minds of some fundamentalists.
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I can see why Fundy, and other Christians, think Jesus is God. The main one being that the NT says that the Jews believed only God could forgive sins, yet Jesus told a man his sins were forgiven.
    Matthew 9:1-8 1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." 3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!" 4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7Then the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.​
    As we all know, the big thing with Christians is to tell us how sinful we are. And that our sin separates us from God. And, that believing in Jesus is the only to get those sins forgiven and get right with God. That's "fundamental" Christianity that is based on what the NT says. If it's wrong, then it's the fault of the NT writers. They made it sound like Jesus was God.

    I'm okay with them being wrong, but what about Baha'is? Do you believe the NT writings are wrong in what they say? I know the usual answer is to make the writings somehow "symbolic" Is that how you see these verses also? If so, then the next Baha'i answer is usually that the writings were symbolic but taken literal, therefore they are being misinterpreted. Does that type of answer apply here with these verses? Or, did Jesus really heal this man and forgive him of his sins?
     
  18. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    There are a lot of very decent people here in Colorado Springs who are fundamentalist Christians. Not all of them are decent, but a lot of them are. I get along fine with the decent ones, but only if I don't discuss religion. Not even most of the decent ones can handle much disagreement. Some can, but not most.

    C'est la vie. We're all human. It's not like any of us are without flaws.
     
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  19. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Actually I think the Baha’i answer would be that Jesus spoke as the Mouthpiece of God in forgiving this person their sins, but I’m a liberal, so for me something is not necessarily true just because the NT says it is.
     
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  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but when talking with a Fundy Christian you know they are coming from a place where they've been taught and have learned to believe that Jesus is God. On top of that, they believe, or at least say they believe, the whole Bible literal. I ask them then should they pluck their eye out if they look and lust after someone. They, of course, say no... they'll say that Jesus was speaking figuratively. But say that the world was not created in six days and they'll say that no, that is a literal six days.

    The sad reality is that they, and probably most people, don't believe or live up to the things that their religion teaches. In some cases that's probably good, 'cause there'd be a lot a people stoned to death for breaking the Biblical laws of God if the Bible were taken literal. Which is another place where Christians don't follow the Bible. They, in fact, sound like Baha'is and say that those laws were for a different time and place and that Jesus has come to "progress" God's people to a new set of rules for a new time.
     
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