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Featured Conversing with religious fundamentalists

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Maybe...
    Because if someone would slap me
    He must be sure it would be on the right cheek
    If he lands on any other part except on the right cheek
    The gloves are coming off.

    But they did.

    Ephesians 5:33 New International Version (NIV)
    However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

    wife - is singular
    husband - is singular like wise
    If you insist a man should have many wives, then the wife should also have many husbands.
    This is the Christian way
    Now compare

    How many wives are you allowed in Islam?
    four
    According to sharia law, Muslims are allowed to practice polygyny. According to the Quran, a man may have up to four legal wives at any one time. The husband is required to treat all wives equally. If a man fears that he will not be able to meet these conditions then he is not allowed more than one wife.
    Marriage in Islam - Wikipedia
    Can a woman marry two husbands in India?
    Typically the marriages are arranged and women have two husbands. But some wives have three or four depending on how many brothers there are in a family. Polyandry is illegal in India but socially acceptable here.Oct 24, 2008
    Brothers share wife to secure family land - CNN.com

    Can a man marry two wives legally?
    Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states. But Utah's law is unique in that a person can be found guilty not just for having two legal marriage licenses, but also for cohabiting with another adult in a marriage-like relationship when they are already legally married to someone else.Dec 13, 2013
    Part of Utah's bigamy law struck down in victory for U.S. TV star ...
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I became a born-again Christian and gave my life over to the Lord. I experienced a full immersion baptism with eleven others in front of a congregation of over 300. I testified that all I wanted to do was serve the Lord.

    Soon after I provided a witness or testimony of my new found Christian faith to an audience at the student union building at my university. There was another Christian too and we played a couple of song,s one I wrote. There were about 50 or so in the audience.

    Some of the words of my song from memory went:

    Forever now in this world,
    we look for the answers
    We see what we want to see,
    but will we ever know

    Across the bounds of the universe
    lies a deep dark distant galaxy
    and within the sounds of my own head
    There's a child I have forgotten

    We look for the answers
    but will we ever see
    The love of God is all we need
    Its up to you not to me


    That's not too radical....

    It was 1985, the height of the cold war so I spoke of the urgent need for peace in the world and the need to disarm nuclear weapons. I spoke of the vast inequality of wealth and the need for a more just and equitable economic system.

    That's more of a Baha'i not Christian message....

    Some Christian student leaders present were polite and diplomatic in their feedback.

    However the first exorcism or casting out of demons happened around that time. One evening I had dinner at the church elders place where we had a bible study. According to the church elder I had a demon of lust in me. Perhaps I looked at the church elder's daughter the wrong way? As I was being prayed over I had a strong impulse to physically strike the instigator of this nonsense. I didn't say or do anything but wondered if I really was possessed at the time. That was the beginning of the end of my involvement with that church.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    What Does the Bible Say About Multiple Wives?

    Bible Verses About Multiple Wives - King James Version
    https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Multiple-Wives
    Bible
    verses related to Multiple Wives from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance. Luke 16:18 - Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery. 1 Timothy 3:12 - Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife,...
     
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  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Do you see wives?
    Only one wife.
    That is in the Bible.
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    You didn't read the link, did you? I won't bother again.
     
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  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 17:17 - Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. [NIV - He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.] POLYGAMY PROHIBITED.

    1 Timothy 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    1 Corinthians 7:2 - Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

    1 Kings 11:3 - And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. [SOLOMON SINNED]

    Deuteronomy 21:15-17 - If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, [both] the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated: (Read More...)
    [IN ISRAEL'S CAPTIVITY IN EGYPT - ISRAELITES ADOPTED EGYPTIAN POLYGAMY - Polygamy in Egypt | Wikigender] HENCE THE RULE

    Luke 16:18 - Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.

    1 Timothy 3:12 - Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    Matthew 5:32 - But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

    Ephesians 5:31 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    Proverbs 18:22 - [Whoso] findeth a wife findeth a good [thing], and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    Matthew 19:3-20 - The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? (Read More...)

    Genesis 4:19 - And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one [was] Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

    Isaiah 4:1 - And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

    1 Peter 3:1 - Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

    Ephesians 5:33 - Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.

    Matthew 19:3-9 - The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? (Read More...)

    2 Samuel 12:8 - And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if [that had been] too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

    Titus 1:6 - If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

    There are a lot here that justify having one wife not POLYGAMY.
    Mind you having a wife is already trouble - why would you add more?
     
    #206 MJFlores, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Other than an admonition for deacons or church leaders to have one wife there is no binding law iin the Bible that prohibits polygamy. Many of the Jewish leaders and prophets had more than one wife as there was no prohibition through God's law stated in the Torah. There is no statement made by Christ, nor the apostles that insists on monogamy.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    David had seven wives: Ahinoam of Jezreel, Abigail of Carmel, Maachah the daughter of King Talmai of Geshur, Haggith, Abital, Eglah and Bath-shua (Bathsheba) the daughter of Ammiel.
     
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  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    King David was revered by the Jews as the greatest King who ruled over the united tribes. A King being married to different woman of different tribes was most likely part of that unity as it was when Muhammad united the tribes of the Arabian Pennisula. Some of the Messianic prophecies are linked to David and there is the Davidic Covenant. I'm sure God accepted polygamy then as He did for Muhammad. Monogamy is now the standard for humanity and this is a Divine Law for the Baha'is. God provides some laws and guidance that are suited for one dispensation and not another.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    You are correct.. Ibn Saud did the same thing... married women from different tribes to cement alliances.
     
  11. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 2:14 New International Version (NIV)
    With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!

    Adultery Definition: Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and another person who is not their married spouse. Related Terms: Divorce, Zina, Bigamy, Marriage, Chaste. In most countries, adultery is a legal ground for divorce (the other being, generally, cruelty).

    That is the definition of Adultery.

    Does the Bible prohibit adultery?
    Yes it does. Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 5:18; Matthew 5:27;

    Actually ancient Israel imposes capital punishment on adultery. Leviticus 20:10

    upload_2019-4-4_18-25-44.jpeg

    Jesus in fact said just by LOOKING LUSTFULLY it is already adultery Matthew 5:28

    In all countries except the Philippines, couples DIVORCE and it could be a host of many reasons - the wife got sick and the man has to leave her, the wife is not attractive anymore, the man is not rich anymore. Jesus Christ taught that if a man divorces his wife except for infidelity, and marries another woman, he commits adultery. Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9; Mark 10:11; Mark 10:12; Luke 16:18

    upload_2019-4-4_18-26-38.jpeg

    Polygamy is sexual immorality and in fact adultery per se. These things comes from the evil thoughts of the heart. Matthew 15:19
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I don't think multiple wives was adultery in the Old Testament. Solomon and Jacob had multiple wives and concubines. Moses apparently had a Midianite wife (Arab) and a Ku****e wife (Ethiopian)

    Abraham had Sarah and Hagar .. unless you count Hagar as a concubine... and remember that twice Sarah found herself in Pharaoh's harem. To me its a lot like the issue of slavery.. and there was no law from God or Jesus against that either..
     
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  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Not according to the bible it isn't. Nor was slavery and the subjugation of women. You are projecting a modern mindset into a world very different from today.
     
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  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    It is a given and common sense that:

    [​IMG]

    Nullum crimen sine lege is the principle in criminal law and international criminal law that a person cannot or should not face criminal punishment except for an act that was criminalized by law before he/she performed the act.

    Nulla poena sine lege (Latin for "no penalty without a law") is a legal principle, requiring that one cannot be punished for doing something that is not prohibited by law. This principle is accepted and codified in modern democratic states as a basic requirement of the rule of law.

    It was the intention of God that there ought to be one husband and one wife and them to become one flesh.
    Genesis 2:24

    From Abraham to Moses, they indeed have more than one wife, concubines and one night stands. There were no prohibition regarding such and no penalties imposed. Only did the law was written by God did exist the prohibition and the penalties. After that, violations were considered punishable or considered sins.
     
  15. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    We are talking about adultery
    or slavery or subjugation of women?

    Sure Solomon had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines

    [​IMG]

    1 Kings 11:2-4 Amplified Bible (AMP)
    from the very nations of whom the Lord said to the Israelites, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for the result will be that they will turn away your hearts to follow their gods.” Yet Solomon clung to these in love. He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away [from God]. For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not completely devoted to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David.

    It was not God sanctioned/allowed/permitted. No it wasn't but Solomon did.

    There are countries today where polygamy is allowed [that is the reality]

    [​IMG]
    Legality of polygamy - Wikipedia

    Blue shaded countries are places where polygamy is legal
    Green shaded countries are places where it is only legal for Muslims
    Red shaded countries are places where it is criminalized but not punished
    Black shaded countries are places where it is illegal

    I belong to a green shaded country, how are you doing?

    And that is how real as it gets.

    Philippines - Muslim Filipinos

    5th paragraph....

    The datu continued to play a central role in Moro society in the 1980s. In many parts of Muslim Mindanao, they still administered the sharia (sacred Islamic law) through the agama. They could no longer expand their circle of followers by raiding other villages, but they achieved the same end by accumulating wealth and then using it to provide aid, employment, and protection for less fortunate neighbors. Datu support was essential for government programs in a Muslim barangay. Although a datu in modern times rarely had more than one wife, polygamy was permitted so long as his wealth was sufficient to provide for more than one. Moro society was still basically hierarchical and familial, at least in rural areas.
     
  16. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Well, get your statements accurate the FIRST time you accuse me.
     
  17. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    My statement was perfectly accurate, and you were being snarky. You still are, in fact. So much for countenancing.
     
  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    The issues with Solomon were about his association with foreign women who worshipped foreign gods, not polygamy itself.

    Polygamy has been progressively phased out in both Christian and Muslim cultures and monogamy has been established as the new norm.

    Muhammed specified that a man should acquire more than one wife only if he could treat them all with equal justice. Many Muslims recognise the impossibility of this condition so would favour monogamy.
     
  19. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I don't really care if people have more than one wife.
    It is their problem and its their choice.
    Their problem and their sin.

    My aunt's husband had a concubine when she got old
    My married student went loco over someone in Canada
    And they are Catholics

    With regards to Muhammad
    He really had 11 wives and Muslims acknowledge this
    Muhammad's wives - Wikipedia

    Examples of living Muslim leaders with wikipedia pages with more than one wife are:
    Mohammad bin Salman - Wikipedia
    Hassanal Bolkiah - Wikipedia

    In my opinion, polygamy and poly-amorous relationship are examples of sexual immorality.
    Divorcing a spouse for the reason other than infidelity and marrying another is adultery again a poly-amorous relationship.

    Matthew 19:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
    and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
     
  20. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    Name the sentence where I mentioned liberals or politics?
     
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