Conversation with a converted christian.

[Sumit]

This is an incidence of today morning. When I saw a person who is converted to Christianity (I know he got a lot of money for that) talking to a group of persons. I mostly don't talk much and rarely talk with strangers but I stood their and listened them as I was waiting for my friends. So this person along with one more christian possibly from Kerala was actually abusing Hinduism and was inviting those people to some type of religious ceremony to show them real god. So I went to him and asked "Uncle, will you not invite me". He said "off course". I asked him to tell me what he was telling to those people and this was what he told me.

I want to tell Indian about the real god, the father who will help you always. In India people are so stupid that they consider everything as god and they even pray cow, dog, pigs etc as god. For half an hour he continued insulting Hinduism, Hindu saints and temples. Then he came to real point, he said "read bible to know real god and that god will forgive your sins". Now this was too much, first I thought not to reply him but finally asked him few questions. I said " how can god forgive sins, suppose you killed any innocent person and asked for his forgiveness, will he forgive. He said yes. So I asked him "how can god forgive sins if god is justice loving, If god forgives sin then this will be injustice towards those the person committed crime. After listing this he changed topic.

He said "When people are angry they do not commit crime but it's the devil which affects mind of people, it's actually not the people who commit crime". I asked him "who created devil". He said God. I said "so isn't it God who is responsible for crime as he is one who created evil."

Again he diverted topic and said "God created us so he is like us, similarly as a human is born from human. So god is like human who sits in heaven".

I said " but what about animals?? They are different from humans so who created them, since acc to you like creates like. And if god sits in heaven than how can you say that god is in heart which you said in beginning.

He said " God only helps adharmi because they need help while dharmic people are narrow minded and believe god as their slave". I asked "what about Mahatma Buddha". He said "Buddha killed thousands of people". I asked him when? But he had no ans.

He said that one day god will judge every soul and send to hell and heaven.
I asked "why your god wait for particular day, I believe god do not select any day for judgement. I believe in reincarnation and karma. He said reincarnation is false.

I said if reincarnation is false and you said that god loves all so why some people in world are born in good families and enjoy better life while others have life like hell, neither food nor house. Some even have no hands or legs. So if their is no reincarnation, this clearly shows partiality of god.

He changed topic and said "karma is nothing, you do not do anything wrong, you never do sin it's devil within you and not you"
I said "uncle please read your bible, it says everyone is born with sin and Jesus died for our sins. Why so?

Finally he repeated his old line "god is our father so he helps us, he is like us. He created us as only human like can create human. You cannot see human giving birth to animals, also human after marriage give birth to only humans.

I said "what about virgin giving birth to child". He said it's wish of god and we cannot question it. I said "so if you cannot ans our simple ques, on what basis do you claim to show us real god?

Finally they said that they have to go and they will talk later, I asked him will you not invite me to your meeting to show me real god. He said definitely, I said I need equal time to speak and ask questions and I will come with my friends who will shoot the event and we will upload it to youtube to help others to know real god. I asked for their ph no but they said that they will call me.

So waiting for their event. This conversation last for 2 hours and completely ruined my day. It's sad to see how missionaries trap people and convert them. Being a student of tantra I can easily show that person heaven and hell at same time but that won't solve problem. We need to educate other Hindus.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

This is an incidence of today morning. When I saw a person who is converted to Christianity (I know he got a lot of money for that) talking to a group of persons. I mostly don't talk much and rarely talk with strangers but I stood their and listened them as I was waiting for my friends. So this person along with one more christian possibly from Kerala was actually abusing Hinduism and was inviting those people to some type of religious ceremony to show them real god. So I went to him and asked "Uncle, will you not invite me". He said "off course". I asked him to tell me what he was telling to those people and this was what he told me.

I want to tell Indian about the real god, the father who will help you always. In India people are so stupid that they consider everything as god and they even pray cow, dog, pigs etc as god. For half an hour he continued insulting Hinduism, Hindu saints and temples. Then he came to real point, he said "read bible to know real god and that god will forgive your sins". Now this was too much, first I thought not to reply him but finally asked him few questions. I said " how can god forgive sins, suppose you killed any innocent person and asked for his forgiveness, will he forgive. He said yes. So I asked him "how can god forgive sins if god is justice loving, If god forgives sin then this will be injustice towards those the person committed crime. After listing this he changed topic.

He said "When people are angry they do not commit crime but it's the devil which affects mind of people, it's actually not the people who commit crime". I asked him "who created devil". He said God. I said "so isn't it God who is responsible for crime as he is one who created evil."

Again he diverted topic and said "God created us so he is like us, similarly as a human is born from human. So god is like human who sits in heaven".

I said " but what about animals?? They are different from humans so who created them, since acc to you like creates like. And if god sits in heaven than how can you say that god is in heart which you said in beginning.

He said " God only helps adharmi because they need help while dharmic people are narrow minded and believe god as their slave". I asked "what about Mahatma Buddha". He said "Buddha killed thousands of people". I asked him when? But he had no ans.

He said that one day god will judge every soul and send to hell and heaven.
I asked "why your god wait for particular day, I believe god do not select any day for judgement. I believe in reincarnation and karma. He said reincarnation is false.

I said if reincarnation is false and you said that god loves all so why some people in world are born in good families and enjoy better life while others have life like hell, neither food nor house. Some even have no hands or legs. So if their is no reincarnation, this clearly shows partiality of god.

He changed topic and said "karma is nothing, you do not do anything wrong, you never do sin it's devil within you and not you"
I said "uncle please read your bible, it says everyone is born with sin and Jesus died for our sins. Why so?

Finally he repeated his old line "god is our father so he helps us, he is like us. He created us as only human like can create human. You cannot see human giving birth to animals, also human after marriage give birth to only humans.

I said "what about virgin giving birth to child". He said it's wish of god and we cannot question it. I said "so if you cannot ans our simple ques, on what basis do you claim to show us real god?

Finally they said that they have to go and they will talk later, I asked him will you not invite me to your meeting to show me real god. He said definitely, I said I need equal time to speak and ask questions and I will come with my friends who will shoot the event and we will upload it to youtube to help others to know real god. I asked for their ph no but they said that they will call me.

So waiting for their event. This conversation last for 2 hours and completely ruined my day. It's sad to see how missionaries trap people and convert them. Being a student of tantra I can easily show that person heaven and hell at same time but that won't solve problem. We need to educate other Hindus.

On the other hand, I am proud of you for questioning him. He had no answers for you because he was not used to being questioned. My guess is he will not call you because he will not want you to question him during this event in front of a lot of people.

Please do not let it ruin your day. You were brave in your actions and you did what you could. Keep questioning these individuals and their ability to sway people will hopefully falter.

:camp:

 

[Poeticus]

That being said, as the religious landscape of the US continues to change (however slowly) no doubt there will be more clashes.

At least the secularism of the US is practically applicable in society. In India, secularism is completely about appeasing anti-Hindu sentiments.

This is an important issue because people are loosing their religion and along with it much of their cultural identity.

This is why if Western Hindus can kindly move to India, and Indian anti-Hindus can move to the West, I would be much obliged.

You (and your hubby), V, and Ratikala. Kindly pack your bags and move to the Mothaaaalaanddd! I'll follow suit!

 

[Vinayaka]

So much pain. So much hassle. So much arguing in mixed marriages. So much unecessary counselling for the victims. So many children torn between parents. So many neighbours fighting neighbours. Why can't they take a hint and leave peaceful people as they are? In peace.

All because the anava is so think that an individual under it can't see that others may think differently that them.

Bring on Modi and extremely strict anti-proseltysing laws!

 

[Poeticus]

So much pain. So much hassle. So much arguing in mixed marriages. So much unecessary counselling for the victims. So many children torn between parents. So many neighbours fighting neighbours. Why can't they take a hint and leave peaceful people as they are? In peace.

And, as soon as we voice our objection, even through soft-dialogue, we are lambasted as anti-Christian. Smh.

While Jesus comforted those with non-violence and by exclaiming that one must turn his/her cheek to the enemy, Christians like those mentioned in the OP in India make Genghis Khan seem like a nice fellow.

You remember all that shenanigan they did when Tamil Nadu was experiencing flooding during that one Tsunami? Outrageous. Even Jesus would have been highly angry with what the proselytizers were doing.

 

[Vinayaka]

So the cute little guy form my other thread about children at temples ... he's in this, poor kid. This morning Mom approached me after the puja .... looking for an ear to listen ... turns out she's married to a Kerala Christian ... practising both religions at once, sort of ... I feel so sorry for this little guy, when he's 14 and learns to think, just what will he do? People just don't get how close to home this is for many people. It is real people and real pain.

 

[Poeticus]

I feel so sorry for this little guy, when he's 14 and learns to think, just what will he do?

I hope he is able to dissect what his father has been teaching him from what he desires for himself.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

You (and your hubby), V, and Ratikala. Kindly pack your bags and move to the Mothaaaalaanddd! I'll follow suit!

Oh, you might not be interested in my husband. He's a struggling Catholic. But he enjoys a good Holi celebration

One of the saddest parts about it is that it's not even about bringing the lessons of Christ to people. If that were true, they'd be content with setting up churches and letting anyone who was curious come in. It's about body count now - about how many souls you can gather. The true objective has been muddled. This is why I am VERY suspicious and critical of charities that run out of India. I don't want to give to an organization that uses manipulation and forced conversion in exchange for food, shelter and education.

I wonder - are there any organized movements against this kind of behavior other then political groups?

:camp:

 

[Poeticus]

I have found that if you live your life according to your faith, people who are interested will find their way to you.

Exact-freaking-ly!

Which goes back to a conversation V and I were having a few weeks ago:

Why are many Africans converting to Hinduism?

Because, they see all these new African Hindus that live accordingly that makes others want to live that certain lifestyle because it does not come with war-rape, drugs, child soldiers, and all that other horrid jazz affecting our African brothers and sisters.

 

[Jainarayan]

"A man may teach by example and no other way." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

I'm sure many churches believe they are doing a good thing. But some very bad things have been done in the name of good intentions. While a good motivation is a nice place to start, good intentions need a sound foundation - compassion, common sense, education and a willingness to accept people as they are.

I have found that if you live your life according to your faith, people who are interested will find their way to you. If, on the other hand, you make a lot of racket, go door to door, make a big show of it - even if your intentions are good, you are bound to turn people off.

Christians would do well to remember Matthew 7:15-23 and stop their underhanded methods...

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Vinayaka]

Another sneaky trick is the slow cancerous method. Slowly sneak him in as an alternative. First, convince Hindus that he actually existed, and matters even a smidgen.

He doesn't. Simple as that.

 

[Vinayaka]

deleted .. thanks

 

[Kalidas]

This is an incidence of today morning. When I saw a person who is converted to Christianity (I know he got a lot of money for that) talking to a group of persons. I mostly don't talk much and rarely talk with strangers but I stood their and listened them as I was waiting for my friends. So this person along with one more christian possibly from Kerala was actually abusing Hinduism and was inviting those people to some type of religious ceremony to show them real god. So I went to him and asked "Uncle, will you not invite me". He said "off course". I asked him to tell me what he was telling to those people and this was what he told me.

I want to tell Indian about the real god, the father who will help you always. In India people are so stupid that they consider everything as god and they even pray cow, dog, pigs etc as god. For half an hour he continued insulting Hinduism, Hindu saints and temples. Then he came to real point, he said "read bible to know real god and that god will forgive your sins". Now this was too much, first I thought not to reply him but finally asked him few questions. I said " how can god forgive sins, suppose you killed any innocent person and asked for his forgiveness, will he forgive. He said yes. So I asked him "how can god forgive sins if god is justice loving, If god forgives sin then this will be injustice towards those the person committed crime. After listing this he changed topic.

He said "When people are angry they do not commit crime but it's the devil which affects mind of people, it's actually not the people who commit crime". I asked him "who created devil". He said God. I said "so isn't it God who is responsible for crime as he is one who created evil."

Again he diverted topic and said "God created us so he is like us, similarly as a human is born from human. So god is like human who sits in heaven".

I said " but what about animals?? They are different from humans so who created them, since acc to you like creates like. And if god sits in heaven than how can you say that god is in heart which you said in beginning.

He said " God only helps adharmi because they need help while dharmic people are narrow minded and believe god as their slave". I asked "what about Mahatma Buddha". He said "Buddha killed thousands of people". I asked him when? But he had no ans.

He said that one day god will judge every soul and send to hell and heaven.
I asked "why your god wait for particular day, I believe god do not select any day for judgement. I believe in reincarnation and karma. He said reincarnation is false.

I said if reincarnation is false and you said that god loves all so why some people in world are born in good families and enjoy better life while others have life like hell, neither food nor house. Some even have no hands or legs. So if their is no reincarnation, this clearly shows partiality of god.

He changed topic and said "karma is nothing, you do not do anything wrong, you never do sin it's devil within you and not you"
I said "uncle please read your bible, it says everyone is born with sin and Jesus died for our sins. Why so?

Finally he repeated his old line "god is our father so he helps us, he is like us. He created us as only human like can create human. You cannot see human giving birth to animals, also human after marriage give birth to only humans.

I said "what about virgin giving birth to child". He said it's wish of god and we cannot question it. I said "so if you cannot ans our simple ques, on what basis do you claim to show us real god?

Finally they said that they have to go and they will talk later, I asked him will you not invite me to your meeting to show me real god. He said definitely, I said I need equal time to speak and ask questions and I will come with my friends who will shoot the event and we will upload it to youtube to help others to know real god. I asked for their ph no but they said that they will call me.

So waiting for their event. This conversation last for 2 hours and completely ruined my day. It's sad to see how missionaries trap people and convert them. Being a student of tantra I can easily show that person heaven and hell at same time but that won't solve problem. We need to educate other Hindus.

If he does I would REALLY like to help you. Being an Ex christian myself I know how they think I know their logic. more importantly I know the flaws.

Here is a fun question to ask. Ask him what happens to those who do NOT hear the "word of God" he will ALMOST certainly say they too will go to heaven. They can not be blamed for not hearing. There ARE people who have no heard of the bible or who never will. They can not be held responsible for no one telling them.

THEN respond accordingly. If he says they too will go to Hell, ask then how is this a loving God to judge those for not making a choice they never had the chance to make.

BUT if he says what I THINK he will say (they go to heaven, again not their fault). Reply with "Then why do you spread the word? By you telling them you are DOOMING them to Hell. If you just left them alone Hell would never happen. So your actually HURTING them by telling them.

I have more like a lot more. So much more. I am working hard not to argue with people these days (I enjoy a good debate now and again). But people like this need to be questioned. Not for you because you are strong in faith, but for those others who will most certainly be persuaded unless someone like you does something.

 

[Vinayaka]

As FH, Kalidas, and others pointed out, there is so much we can do.

1) Stand up. Don't let them boss you around or use sneaky tactics. Tell all your neighbours when they do. Don't accept religious pamphlets. If they insist, immediately throw them out.
2) Be proud to call yourself a Hindu. Don't hang your face in shame because of the constant ridicule thrown are way over the last 200 years. Undo all those 'That's stupid!" s.
3) Educate our brothers and sisters about all the wonderful things in Hinduism. The philosophy, scriptures containing 100 times more than any Abrahamic faith, rich diversity, a way out of suffering, ahimsa, ayurveda, architecture, that's lasted 1000 so of years, and is just so strong, so alive that it's sure to last thousands more.
4) a philosophy that contains both a personal and impersonal God, a loving God, with no hell or punishment if you don't beleive
5) let other Hindus know that the west is turning to Hinduism in crores, and many more are influenced tremendously by Hindu concepts, like a non-dual philosophy (best-selling authors like Tolle) or Ahimsa (Dr. Martin Luther King)
6) If you have internet show the likes of Himalayan Academy videos, ISKCON in Russia or Gahananda in Nigeria.
7) Give to charity, be an example
8) If you're a westerner, show up at the Hindu temples of the west, surrender to god, and proudly declare, 'Thank goodness I'm home.)

All this and more. There is so much we can do. Best wishes, Sumit, in doing whatever you can.

 

[Kalidas]

As FH, Kalidas, and others pointed out, there is so much we can do.

1) Stand up. Don't let them boss you around or use sneaky tactics. Tell all your neighbours when they do. Don't accept religious pamphlets. If they insist, immediately throw them out.
2) Be proud to call yourself a Hindu. Don't hang your face in shame because of the constant ridicule thrown are way over the last 200 years. Undo all those 'That's stupid!" s.
3) Educate our brothers and sisters about all the wonderful things in Hinduism. The philosophy, scriptures containing 100 times more than any Abrahamic faith, rich diversity, a way out of suffering, ahimsa, ayurveda, architecture, that's lasted 1000 so of years, and is just so strong, so alive that it's sure to last thousands more.
4) a philosophy that contains both a personal and impersonal God, a loving God, with no hell or punishment if you don't beleive
5) let other Hindus know that the west is turning to Hinduism in crores, and many more are influenced tremendously by Hindu concepts, like a non-dual philosophy (best-selling authors like Tolle) or Ahimsa (Dr. Martin Luther King)
6) If you have internet show the likes of Himalayan Academy videos, ISKCON in Russia or Gahananda in Nigeria.
7) Give to charity, be an example
8) If you're a westerner, show up at the Hindu temples of the west, surrender to god, and proudly declare, 'Thank goodness I'm home.)

All this and more. There is so much we can do. Best wishes, Sumit, in doing whatever you can.

Yeah what he said lol. Sumit we got your back. I agree I think letting them know that Westerners are turning may be a BIG help. Not that Western Hindus are "better" but we do tend to live in better conditions, plus the west DOES have HUGE impacts on societies and what is culturally "cool". showing these Indians "Hey people over there are trying to be more like YOU." might give them confidence or at least make them think there is some validity to what they believe.

 

[Hunter8]

Though we can sit around and simply blame the Christians, this also shows the mind of Hindus and the minds of those living in the east. Hindus are not very proud of their identity, and alot of that is because they were picked and prodded inside and out by the English and the Muslims. Temples destroyed, but even worse is the psychological effects that the english people had on the Hindus by trying to eradicate their way of thinking and remove their culture in place of english culture. The problem here isn't christianity, and as I can see, many of us don't think that. The problem is the Christian crusader who sees it as his/her duty to convert the "cow worshippers".*

This leads to the culmination of my point. Just like many westerners are becoming interested in Eastern thought and culture, I have a subtle feeling that easterners are becoming infatuated by the western culture of big building, money and casual sexuality. All the media portrays the western culture as living happily with money and casual sexuality. these are things that draw us on a very instinctual level. So, when an eastern person has an interest in western culture, comes into contact with a westerner who happens to be Christian, they immediately feel very little pride about themselves and want to change to become more like a "Saved, Christian westerner". Kind of like how I was when I met Sanatana Dharma, I felt very little pride about my western culture and wanted to change. Perhaps the sides are switching, the west is beginning the east and vice versa.*

To sum up what I am trying to say, just like the west is becoming drawn towards the east, the east is becoming drawn towards the west. Indians are converting to secularism and christianty, western things, while we in the west are converting to Buddhism and Hinduism. The only difference in the tactics. The Hindus have a way about them that brings peoples interest towards them, whereas Christians are more up in your face and knocking on your door. I don't know if any of this makes sense, just ranting at this point.*

 

[Vinayaka]

Here's another deplorable tactic to watch out for...

Obituaries and Proselytization - Hindu Currents

 

[Kalidas]

Here's another deplorable tactic to watch out for...

Obituaries and Proselytization - Hindu Currents

Deplorable. Just plain sickening, taking advantage of hurt mourning people is the lowest of low.

 

[Kalidas]

Though we can sit around and simply blame the Christians, this also shows the mind of Hindus and the minds of those living in the east. Hindus are not very proud of their identity, and alot of that is because they were picked and prodded inside and out by the English and the Muslims. Temples destroyed, but even worse is the psychological effects that the english people had on the Hindus by trying to eradicate their way of thinking and remove their culture in place of english culture. The problem here isn't christianity, and as I can see, many of us don't think that. The problem is the Christian crusader who sees it as his/her duty to convert the "cow worshippers".*

This leads to the culmination of my point. Just like many westerners are becoming interested in Eastern thought and culture, I have a subtle feeling that easterners are becoming infatuated by the western culture of big building, money and casual sexuality. All the media portrays the western culture as living happily with money and casual sexuality. these are things that draw us on a very instinctual level. So, when an eastern person has an interest in western culture, comes into contact with a westerner who happens to be Christian, they immediately feel very little pride about themselves and want to change to become more like a "Saved, Christian westerner". Kind of like how I was when I met Sanatana Dharma, I felt very little pride about my western culture and wanted to change. Perhaps the sides are switching, the west is beginning the east and vice versa.*

To sum up what I am trying to say, just like the west is becoming drawn towards the east, the east is becoming drawn towards the west. Indians are converting to secularism and christianty, western things, while we in the west are converting to Buddhism and Hinduism. The only difference in the tactics. The Hindus have a way about them that brings peoples interest towards them, whereas Christians are more up in your face and knocking on your door. I don't know if any of this makes sense, just ranting at this point.*

I agree Christians as whole are not to blame. Almost ALL my family and friends are Christian and I love them all much. Now these missionaries...well I have a WHOLE different opinion of THEM.

What you said solidifys my point. If we (westerners) make Hinduism "cool again" they make like it or no longer feel the shame. The few Indian Hindus that know I'm Hindu were fairly happy to find out and were genuinely curious about me.

 

[George-ananda]

I saw a person who is converted to Christianity (I know he got a lot of money for that) talking to a group of persons.

I am saddened to hear this. I was aware those things happen.

Some questions if you would be so kind.

Was the speaker Indian and born into a Hindu family?

Do the people he's trying to convert get some financial or other advantage for converting? Do they get something just for listening?

What makes him have an audience?

Although I don't like what he does, I think in a society with free-speech he should be allowed to speak and no one should be forced to listen. Maybe someone can change my mind about that. In Israel I've heard it is illegal to proselytize.