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Contradictions In The Account Of The Resurrection

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by IsaiahX, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Ape That Loves

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  2. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    You want me to follow that link, leading to who knows where, and dig through it to find out what the person who wrote it, whoever that may be, has to say about the subject? Is that what you are saying?

    Any specific alleged contradictions you would like to have examined? Or all of them? How many are there? 10? 30? 100?
     
  3. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Ape That Loves

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    Mark 16:8 and Luke 24:9-12 would be a good start.
     
  4. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    From the article posted by the OP.

    "Mark 16:14-19 - Jesus ascends while he and his disciples are seated at a table in or near Jerusalem
    Matthew 28:16-20 - Jesus’ ascension isn’t mentioned at all, but Matthew ends at a mountain in Galilee
    Luke 24:50-51 - Jesus ascends outside, after dinner, and at Bethany and on the same day as the resurrection
    John - Nothing about Jesus’ ascension is mentioned
    Acts 1:9-12 - Jesus ascends at least 40 days after his resurrection, at Mt."
     
  5. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    There are two things to consider here. First of all, the possibility that since Mary had left to tell the apostles what she had seen, these other women are the ones that Mark is referring to. Mark's account of the events that took place are somewhat more limited than the others and he doesn't mention Mary having left, but the others do. That doesn't mean that he meant to imply that she hadn't, but only that he didn't mention it. Also note that the second half of verse 8 it seems to contradict itself saying that the women did tell Peter. This brings us to the second point of consideration. The second half of verse 8 of Mark chapter 16 to the conclusion of the book is spurious. It was added on later.

    The Codex Regius of the eighth century includes both the short and the long ending adding that they are current in some quarters while not recognizing either as authoritative.

    The Greek Codex Alexandrinus, and Ephraemi rescriptus from the fifth century C.E., as well as the Greek and Latin Bezae Codices from the fifth and sixth centuries C.E., Jerome's Latin Vulgate c. 400 C.E., Curetonian Syriac, Old Syriac and Syriac Pe****ta, Christian Aramaic both from the fifth century C.E. add the long conclusion, but the Greek Codex Sinaiticus and Vatican ms 1209, both from the fourth century C.E. as well as the Cinaitic Syriac codex from the fourth and fifth century C.E., and Armenian Version from the fourth to thirteenth century C.E. omits them. It would seem, especially when examining the context, that these verses were added sometime during this period.

    Matthew: Yes (28:8)
    Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
    Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
    John: Yes (20:18)
     
  6. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Okay. I didn't visit the link. It sounds like Dan Barker's stuff. I posted a response some years ago on the Skeptic's Annotated Bible's forum. It's long. It's not meant for you to have to go through it all and respond, of course, unless you want to, but I offer it for consideration. A bit of a text dump but worth a read. IMO

    1. Matthew was the only one to mention dead people emerging from their graves upon Jesus' death. It is assumed that these resurrected dead were walking around. The omission of the dead people emerging from the graves by the other writers does not, of course, mean anything. Matthew was the first gospel to be written. In De viris inlustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men), chapter III, Jerome says: "Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed." So this (Matthew having been the first gospel) might be a reason for the others having not included the dead people emerging from their graves.

    Any serious scholar of the Bible could tell you that at Matthew 27:52-53 the Greek egeiro means simply raised up rather than resurrected back to life, and in addition to this "they" (meaning the bodies that were walking around) is a pronoun, and in Greek all pronouns have gender and "they" is masculine whereas bodies" (the bodies that were lifted up) is in the neuter. They are not the same.

    Adam Clarke: "It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned in verses 52 and 53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes, others think the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city."

    Theobald Daechsel's translation: "And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up."

    Johannes Greber's translation: "Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."

    2. At Matthew 28:2 there was an "earthquake" and an angel rolled back the stone slab that closed the tomb off. The other gospel writers don't mention this. Some Bible defenders suggest past perfect, but as the author points out the passage is in the aorist (past) tense.

    The Greek word seismos means quaking, shaking or trembling. (Matthew 27:51, 54; 28:4; Revelation 6:13) The earth quaking from the moving of a rather large stone, for example, might have been trivial enough for some not to mention it.

    A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by James H. Moulton, Vol. I, 1908, p. 109, "the Aorist has a 'punctiliar' action, that is, it regards action as a point: it represents the point of entrance . . . or that of completion . . . or it looks at a whole action simply as having occurred, without distinguishing any steps in its progress."

    Aorist is a peculiar tense in the koiné Greek which means "not bounded" as to time. Verbs in the aorist tense can be rendered in a variety of ways depending upon the context. They could mark a definite occurrence of something at an unstated time in the past, such as with Matthew 28:2. An example of a similar case would be in Matthew 17:3 where the voice announced that the son had been approved. Many translations often miss the exact meaning of texts where the aorist tense is used. Matthew, understood correctly, indicates that the stone had been rolled back before the women arrived, he only mentioned that the stone had been moved and how it was moved whereas the other gospel writers do not.
    The author considers the following as discrepancies. Each of them will be addressed below. What time did the women visit the tomb?

    They all convey the idea that it was dark and getting light. Dawn.

    Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
    Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
    Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
    John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

    Who were the Women?

    Some Bible writers mentioned the names of certain women, others do not. The various accounts do not indicate any of the women were not present, they only vary in which names are given.

    Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
    Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
    Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
    John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

    What was their purpose?

    Mark 15:47 and Luke 23:55-56 clearly state that the women were there the night before and rested for the Sabbath, then the following morning (the ancient Hebrew night was divided into "watches" each about 4 hours long. The third and final watch was from about 2:00 a.m. to sunrise. Called the morning watch. By Jesus' time they had adopted the Roman division of 4 watches, the final one being from about 3:00 a.m. to sunrise, though the Hebrew day began at sunset or evening and ended the following sunset or evening.) These verses, as well as John 19:39-40 took place before the morning of Jesus' rising from the dead. They are considered here, even though outside the conditions of the challenge, because the author has confused them for having taken place that morning. At John 19:39-40 upon Jesus' burial it is mentioned that the body had been spiced, but since it was a Sabbath, and the burial was done in haste, the women had returned to do a more thorough job.

    Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
    Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
    Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
    John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

    Was the tomb open when they arrived?

    Matthew gives the account of the stone being moved before the women arrived where the others do not. See 2. above.

    Matthew: No (28:2)
    Mark: Yes (16:4)
    Luke: Yes (24:2)
    John: Yes (20:1)
     
    #6 Earthling, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

    Angels are spirit form and so in order for them to be seen by humans they have to assume physical form, so some see them as men and others know that they are actually angels. They are, in a sense, both angels and men.

    (Genesis 29:1-5) Many of the details of the account given by the four writers of the gospel differ in a way that depends upon who is telling the account to them. There were people coming and going over an indeterminate amount of time, and where one person would see one thing another would see something different from their own perspective of where they fit in the stream of time.

    For example, the guards were there during the night, and some of the women were there. The women left first and then the soldiers left sometime not long before the women returned. The soldiers left when the angels arrived and moved the stone. Mary arrived but left to tell the others what had happened; the apostles arrived - John being younger and faster arrived first, before Peter. The arrival of the others isn't specifically mentioned but they were there. If the Bible skeptic, who seems to expect all four of these accounts to be identical thus defeating the purpose of giving a varied witness account, was set down at any given point within my brief description of a part of what happened it would differ from any other point. Was Mary there or not? Depends upon when you got there. The same applies to Peter and John, and the angels and the guards and Jesus. And their positions.

    Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
    Mark: One young man (16:5)
    Luke: Two men (24:4)
    John: Two angels (20:12)

    Where were these messengers situated?

    See the point directly above. In seeing these small details that differ among various witnesses one could either come to the conclusion that these things didn't take place as the Bible says they did, or that there was an attempt to give accurate accounts from various perspectives in the stream of time which must have been a tremendously exciting and confusing period. And they differed slightly. It would have been easy enough for four Christians to come together and create one account that didn't differ in any way, but what would have been the point? The skeptic would have to take the position that they were so similar they must be fraudulent, and in thinking this they would be right.

    Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
    Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
    Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
    John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

    What did the messenger(s) say?

    Each of the accounts that are given convey the same message. If one tells another what yet another says the words may become ones own but the message is the same. These quotes themselves change over time and translation but the message is the same.

    Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
    Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
    Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
    John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

    Did the women tell what happened?

    There are two things to consider here. First of all, the possibility that since Mary had left to tell the apostles what she had seen, these other women are the ones that Mark is referring to. Mark's account of the events that took place are somewhat more limited than the others and he doesn't mention Mary having left, but the others do. That doesn't mean that he meant to imply that she hadn't, but only that he didn't mention it. Also note that the second half of verse 8 it seems to contradict itself saying that the women did tell Peter. This brings us to the second point of consideration. The second half of verse 8 of Mark chapter 16 to the conclusion of the book is spurious. It was added on later.

    The Codex Regius of the eighth century includes both the short and the long ending adding that they are current in some quarters while not recognizing either as authoritative.

    The Greek Codex Alexandrinus, and Ephraemi rescriptus from the fifth century C.E., as well as the Greek and Latin Bezae Codices from the fifth and sixth centuries C.E., Jerome's Latin Vulgate c. 400 C.E., Curetonian Syriac, Old Syriac and Syriac Pe****ta, Christian Aramaic both from the fifth century C.E. add the long conclusion, but the Greek Codex Sinaiticus and Vatican ms 1209, both from the fourth century C.E. as well as the Cinaitic Syriac codex from the fourth and fifth century C.E., and Armenian Version from the fourth to thirteenth century C.E. omits them. It would seem, especially when examining the context, that these verses were added sometime during this period.

    Matthew: Yes (28:8)
    Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
    Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
    John: Yes (20:18)

    When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

    During the confusion of the events at the tomb Mary may have had, at any given point, some confusion about what was going on. That is completely understandable. Another point to consider is the body of Jesus itself. Jesus had one body which was sacrificed for all time. That body was now lifeless and taken away by angels, because, what is the point of sacrificing the body only to bring it back 3 days later? The man Jesus had died and was no more, but the spirit form that had existed before the man was alive again and had to take on another body in a similar way as all of the angels that were there at the tomb. This is why Mary and others didn't recognize him at first; she thought that he was the gardener.

    Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
    Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
    Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
    John: No (20:2)

    When did Mary first see Jesus?

    Notice that Mathew 28:9 doesn't mention Mary, only the women, and John mentions that Mary had left to tell Peter what had happened. Mark 16:9-10 are spurious. (See above "Did the women tell what happened?"

    Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
    Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
    John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

    Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

    In some older translations the Greek hapto which can mean "touch," but also "cling to, lay hold of" in English. Since Jesus allowed others to touch him it appears that in the case of Mary, she had been clinging to Jesus. She no doubt had been upset that he had died and didn't want to let him go, not understanding that he was going to go to Heaven with his Father to fulfill the purpose he had told them about, which is why he explained to her that that is what he needed to do. The German Elberfelder and Luther translations, the French Crampon and Liénar Bibles, Italian Riveduta and Diodati and Spanish Moderna, Valera and Nácar-Colunga translations all use the term "touching" as well. The New English Bible, Catholic La Bible de Jérusalem (The Jerusalem Bible) in French and English use the more contextually accurate "stop clinging" or "let go of" terminology which agrees with An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, Vol. IV, p. 145. The Spanish Ediciones Paulinas uses "Suéltame," meaning "Let go of me."

    Matthew: Yes (28:9)
    John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
     
  8. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    Acts 1:1 The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach, 2 until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:


    Christ’s Resurrection—Four Accounts, One Reality
    Biblical Authority
    Christ’s Resurrection—Four Accounts, One Reality
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The resurrection narrative makes the most sense as an allegorical story rather than as a completely literal account. In that sense the internal contradictions between the New Testament accounts and then with science/reason are resolved.
     
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  10. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think there is no contradiction. If we take for example the first point, Jesus’ First Resurrection Appearance, your source says:
    Mark 16:14-15 - Jesus appears to Mary Magdalena, but it’s not clear where (in older endings of Mark, he didn’t appear at all)
    Matthew 28:8-9 - Jesus first appears near his tomb
    Luke 24:13-15 - Jesus first appears near Emmaus, several miles from Jerusalem
    John 20:13-14 - Jesus first appears at his tomb


    And now, if we look what the Bible says:

    Mark 16:14-15: Afterward he was revealed to the eleven themselves as they sat at the table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they didn't believe those who had seen him after he had risen. He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.

    Matthew 28:8-9: They departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring his disciples word. As they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" They came and took hold of his feet, and worshiped him.

    Luke 24:13-15: Behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was sixty stadia from Jerusalem. They talked with each other about all of these things which had happened. It happened, while they talked and questioned together, that Jesus himself came near, and went with them.

    John 20:13-14: They told her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I don't know where they have laid him." When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, and didn't know that it was Jesus.

    The most interesting thing is, those don’t say “first appearance”. So, one has to ask, are atheists really so illiterate, or are they just trying to deceive people?

    And also, why continue to read further their message, if the first point shows that they either have not read, or are have developed own contradictory interpretation and then try to make people to believe their bad interpretation makes Bible wrong?

    I think thoughtco.com is dishonest fake site.
     
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