• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Contradictions Challenge

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm familiar with all these verses and more, and their context. I want to keep it simple for us. Please address the two verse passages I've shared:

John 3:16 and Romans 4:1-8, since they VERY plainly explain that one need not do any works to get salvation, keep salvation, feel salvation or confirm salvation. Showing me, for example, Ephesians, if it teaches what you think it teaches, is showing the Bible has contradictions, if you understand John and Romans as quoted here.

Before I talk more about this, which I dont mind doing, your motives and assumptions cant cloud what I say. If you already have in your mind my points, its a waste of time because you's be repeating what you say to all other peolle catholic, lsd, and jw. Im not either. But you have to read my other posts to understand the differences between being part of a denimination or worldview (evangalist etc) and being one with christ dispite denomini and worldview.
 

Earthling

David Henson
You appear to be saying that there are no contradictions in the bible. Is that right?

No, there are contradictions, most of which are numerical copyist errors, since they are somewhat more problematic in nature, what I'm saying is that most alleged contradictions are not contradictions at all but misunderstanding of the text.

If so, since there are many contradictions, that would indicate you intend to reply in the role of an apologist and not, for example, as an objective student of ancient texts or as an historian, no?

For example, do you agree with Bart Ehrman's general approach in >Misquoting Jesus< and >Forged<?[/QUOTE]

I don't know, I've never read it. I doubt it, though. From the little I've seen of that sort of thinking it's about on the same level as some History Channel program on ancient aliens.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No, there are contradictions, most of which are numerical copyist errors, since they are somewhat more problematic in nature, what I'm saying is that most alleged contradictions are not contradictions at all but misunderstanding of the text.

If so, since there are many contradictions, that would indicate you intend to reply in the role of an apologist and not, for example, as an objective student of ancient texts or as an historian, no?

For example, do you agree with Bart Ehrman's general approach in >Misquoting Jesus< and >Forged<?

I don't know, I've never read it. I doubt it, though. From the little I've seen of that sort of thinking it's about on the same level as some History Channel program on ancient aliens.

So if one text says apple and another say bean bags its a numerical error... Gotya
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, there are contradictions, most of which are numerical copyist errors, since they are somewhat more problematic in nature, what I'm saying is that most alleged contradictions are not contradictions at all but misunderstanding of the text.

If so, since there are many contradictions, that would indicate you intend to reply in the role of an apologist and not, for example, as an objective student of ancient texts or as an historian, no?


I don't know, I've never read it. I doubt it, though. From the little I've seen of that sort of thinking it's about on the same level as some History Channel program on ancient aliens.

Claiming that they are copyists errors is only an explanation at best and does not mean that there are not self contradictions in the Bible. And one clear example that is not a "copyist error" is the genealogy of Jesus. Matthew and Luke disagree with each other. In very early days it was argued that Matthew was Mary's line, over time the argument got switched to it being of Luke's line. This site gives a third possibility that they are both different aspects of Jesus's genealogy:

Is Mary’s lineage in one of the Gospels?

All of those are mere excuses at best. None of them refute the self contradiction claim. And on a related note the author of Luke put's Jesus's birth at both roughly 6 CE and 4 BCE.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Claiming that they are copyists errors is only an explanation at best and does not mean that there are not self contradictions in the Bible. And one clear example that is not a "copyist error" is the genealogy of Jesus. Matthew and Luke disagree with each other. In very early days it was argued that Matthew was Mary's line, over time the argument got switched to it being of Luke's line. This site gives a third possibility that they are both different aspects of Jesus's genealogy:

Is Mary’s lineage in one of the Gospels?

All of those are mere excuses at best. None of them refute the self contradiction claim. And on a related note the author of Luke put's Jesus's birth at both roughly 6 CE and 4 BCE.

What contradiction, specifically? and how do you determine that Luke put's Jesus birth at both those dates, especially considering both those dates are in fact, incorrect?
 

Earthling

David Henson
Funny how you can reply to that so quickly

Now I've got two posters who are, more or less, hounding me. That's about average, really. Not bad.

A question for all of the people on the forum posting . . . do you have someone who disagrees so strongly with you or has felt insulted by something you've written to the point that they follow you around like a spoiled angry child? I get it every time I join a forum.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What contradiction, specifically? and how do you determine that Luke put's Jesus birth at both those dates, especially considering both those dates are in fact, incorrect?


First off what makes you think those dates are incorrect? You do understand what the word "roughly" means, don't you?

But what the heck. Luke has Jesus born while Herod is still alive. He died roughly 4 BCE. He also has Joseph going to Bethlehem for a census. The only one close to that time was the Census of Quirinius. Which was roughly 6 CE.

Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia

You do realize that the average pregnancy does not last 10 years, I hope.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Now I've got two posters who are, more or less, hounding me. That's about average, really. Not bad.

A question for all of the people on the forum posting . . . do you have someone who disagrees so strongly with you or has felt insulted by something you've written to the point that they follow you around like a spoiled angry child? I get it every time I join a forum.


Oh my! Trying to insult others that have refuted your claims. That is more than childish. Once again you are projecting your flaws upon others. Personal attacks of this nature are a bit on the forbidden side here. I am not "following you" I ignore most of your threads. But once I start I do not stop on a thread. Especially if a person cannot be honest enough to admit his errors.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Now I've got two posters who are, more or less, hounding me. That's about average, really. Not bad.

A question for all of the people on the forum posting . . . do you have someone who disagrees so strongly with you or has felt insulted by something you've written to the point that they follow you around like a spoiled angry child? I get it every time I join a forum.

Try being honest and you'll have none.

And there goes the condescending pretend innocence again.

Have you ever considered why you get it every time you join a thread.

Btw, if you don't want posters who call you out for you errors why are you on a public forum?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Oh my! Trying to insult others that have refuted your claims. That is more than childish. Once again you are projecting your flaws upon others. Personal attacks of this nature are a bit on the forbidden side here. I am not "following you" I ignore most of your threads. But once I start I do not stop on a thread. Especially if a person cannot be honest enough to admit his errors.

One of the worst cases of dishonesty in the name of his god i have ever seen
 
Last edited:

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
No, the Hebrew says כֹּל מִקְנֵה. According to The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, the primary meaning of the noun in question (with specific reference to "Ex. 9:3 +") is:

1. cattle in gen., including cows, sheep, horses, asses, camels (any or all of them), as purchasable domestic animals
Yes, I'm aware.

Cattle to many (including me) refers to cows and bulls alone. The term livestock is broader, it fits the intent of the writer.

Thanks.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
. . . do you have someone who disagrees so strongly with you or has felt insulted by something you've written to the point that they follow you around like a spoiled angry child? I get it every time I join a forum.
I've never had that happen to me. Of course... that's probably because I am willing to see debate points to "the end"... or until one or the both of us fizzle out and the "debate" degenerates into us both saying we simply can't accept the other's positions... or worse, it becomes a veiled-insult match instead of any actual debate.

You, on the other hand... I've noticed you're very willing to just duck out when things get heated. You just stop replying - which makes it seem very much like you just can't hold up your end of the debate - or you're in a corner, at a point where you're going to have to admit something uncomfortable about how far your trust in God goes (likely even to the detriment of your fellow man). That's more than likely what gets you into these troubles you talk about.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Here is one I am mulling over from my own recent thread...

Here is a conflict in reporting on Esau's wives...

Genesis 26
When Esau was forty years old, he married Judith daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and also Basemath daughter of Elon the Hittite

Genesis 36
Esau took his wives from the women of Canaan: Adah daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon the Hivite— also Basemathdaughter of Ishmael and sister of Nebaioth.

Granted that in Genesis 26 we might allow that Esau only married two wives at that time, we have one match but the other wife in Genesis 26 doesn't match either of the other two offered in later scripture. And Oholibamah's father seems to be different in each case.

What gives?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Where did I say God was a moral being? Morality is subjective, isn't it? In the Bible times homosexual pedophilia was moral all around Israel and Judah. God forbade it. Slavery was also considered moral to the nation surrounding Israel, including, later, the Romans. God allowed it.

Interesting.... so do you worship this immoral God of the bible?
 

Earthling

David Henson
I've never had that happen to me. Of course... that's probably because I am willing to see debate points to "the end"... or until one or the both of us fizzle out and the "debate" degenerates into us both saying we simply can't accept the other's positions... or worse, it becomes a veiled-insult match instead of any actual debate.

You, on the other hand... I've noticed you're very willing to just duck out when things get heated. You just stop replying - which makes it seem very much like you just can't hold up your end of the debate - or you're in a corner, at a point where you're going to have to admit something uncomfortable about how far your trust in God goes (likely even to the detriment of your fellow man). That's more than likely what gets you into these troubles you talk about.

This is an excellent response! It's a very accurate criticism and, to an extent, I must admit, it bothers me that this has always been true about me in a 22 year history of discussion and debate on forums like this. I relish the opportunity to talk about it. Kind of odd, because I don't know you except for a couple of posts today. You must have been following my posts for some time. Let me explain why I think I do this.

1. I get bored really quickly, and secondly I don't know about you, but I have a lot of different people coming at me with all sorts of different responses and I want to get to as many of them as I can, but let's be reasonable. I can't. So to a certain extent I have to pick my battles. I would think that this applies to everyone else as well.

2. I think a discussion should be over in 2 or 3 exchanges per person. If you can't make your point and move on by then, give it a rest. To me, this is fair and reasonable. I presented my case, each of you presented yours, why labor it for weeks? Move on to the next topic.

3. Many people who disagree with you will simply vilify you by putting you into a category. Well, you're just an atheist, or Christian, Jehovah's Witness, or Jew, or Racist, or Bigot, or uneducated, or any other thing, worst of all . . . troll. I'm none of those things and that sort of argument doesn't mean anything to me. That has nothing to do with the debate or discussion. I'm not here to attack or defend anyone. What I am or am not isn't the subject, what I say is the subject. People will use sources or attack sources you use like this as well. Who said a thing and what they are isn't the subject to me, the subject is what is being said about the subject. I ignore those sorts of responses because they are irrelevant.

4. Often a person who disagrees strongly with you will start peppering their commentary as if to manipulate the people reading their responses that something about your position is failing or questionable when it isn't and they haven't given any evidence that it is. They'll say something like "You've already lost the debate." or "You've already proven your ignorance." or "You still haven't refuted my claims." When nothing remotely similar has occurred. This is often combined with #3. Maybe, for example, I would post something like "[Genesis 1:11] The Biblical kind, from the Hebrew leminoh, Greek genos, and Latin genus, differs from the Evolutionist kind. The Biblical "kind" can be defined as divisions in which cross fertility can occur, a boundary between these kinds is drawn where fertilization ceases. Apple trees, for example, don't produce broccoli, squirrels don't produce horses.

"In biology a kind applies to animals and plants which possess one or more distinctive characteristics, meaning the biological term kind may contain several varieties within a Biblical kind."

A good response to this would be something like: " No, the Greek genos and Latin Genus is more in agreement with the biological term etc. etc."

A bad response would be: "You've shown your ignorance again, probably due to your uneducated Christian upbringing, here's a link I found in a quick search, a 45 page dissertation on Strawman arguments, don't I look clever with out having actually said anything at all. " Repeat, reapeat, repeat. I guess they are so obtuse they think that if they repeat it often enough it must be true, or at least the readers might think so.

My position is if the reader or the poster of responses like that are so obtuse to think that is impressive then there isn't anything I would waste my time to pursue further molestation in order to clarify anything with. I just ignore it because I don't want to have that same discussion for a month or more.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Interesting.... so do you worship this immoral God of the bible?

You are suggesting that the God of the Bible is immoral in your phrasing, which as I said, is subjective. I don't think the God of the Bible is immoral, and I do worship the God of the Bible, Jehovah.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
This is an excellent response! It's a very accurate criticism and, to an extent, I must admit, it bothers me that this has always been true about me in a 22 year history of discussion and debate on forums like this. I relish the opportunity to talk about it. Kind of odd, because I don't know you except for a couple of posts today. You must have been following my posts for some time. Let me explain why I think I do this.

1. I get bored really quickly, and secondly I don't know about you, but I have a lot of different people coming at me with all sorts of different responses and I want to get to as many of them as I can, but let's be reasonable. I can't. So to a certain extent I have to pick my battles. I would think that this applies to everyone else as well.

2. I think a discussion should be over in 2 or 3 exchanges per person. If you can't make your point and move on by then, give it a rest. To me, this is fair and reasonable. I presented my case, each of you presented yours, why labor it for weeks? Move on to the next topic.

3. Many people who disagree with you will simply vilify you by putting you into a category. Well, you're just an atheist, or Christian, Jehovah's Witness, or Jew, or Racist, or Bigot, or uneducated, or any other thing, worst of all . . . troll. I'm none of those things and that sort of argument doesn't mean anything to me. That has nothing to do with the debate or discussion. I'm not here to attack or defend anyone. What I am or am not isn't the subject, what I say is the subject. People will use sources or attack sources you use like this as well. Who said a thing and what they are isn't the subject to me, the subject is what is being said about the subject. I ignore those sorts of responses because they are irrelevant.

4. Often a person who disagrees strongly with you will start peppering their commentary as if to manipulate the people reading their responses that something about your position is failing or questionable when it isn't and they haven't given any evidence that it is. They'll say something like "You've already lost the debate." or "You've already proven your ignorance." or "You still haven't refuted my claims." When nothing remotely similar has occurred. This is often combined with #3. Maybe, for example, I would post something like "[Genesis 1:11] The Biblical kind, from the Hebrew leminoh, Greek genos, and Latin genus, differs from the Evolutionist kind. The Biblical "kind" can be defined as divisions in which cross fertility can occur, a boundary between these kinds is drawn where fertilization ceases. Apple trees, for example, don't produce broccoli, squirrels don't produce horses.

"In biology a kind applies to animals and plants which possess one or more distinctive characteristics, meaning the biological term kind may contain several varieties within a Biblical kind."

A good response to this would be something like: " No, the Greek genos and Latin Genus is more in agreement with the biological term etc. etc."

A bad response would be: "You've shown your ignorance again, probably due to your uneducated Christian upbringing, here's a link I found in a quick search, a 45 page dissertation on Strawman arguments, don't I look clever with out having actually said anything at all. " Repeat, reapeat, repeat. I guess they are so obtuse they think that if they repeat it often enough it must be true, or at least the readers might think so.

My position is if the reader or the poster of responses like that are so obtuse to think that is impressive then there isn't anything I would waste my time to pursue further molestation in order to clarify anything with. I just ignore it because I don't want to have that same discussion for a month or more.
I get what you're saying, and I see the things you pointed to all too often on this forum and others, and I am not at all impressed by it either.

Personally, I always try and come back with something cogent and to the point... never just a denunciation of the other's position. As you stated, it gets the conversation nowhere, and it isn't an actual refutation of whatever has been said - which also ends up looking weak in comparison to an actual thought-out response that answers to the point(s) the other has made.

And if I ever find myself running out of steam, or unable to come back with anything because we're finally at a point where I actually agree with what is being said, I'll simply admit it. I'm not here to "win" (such isn't even possible), but more to (hopefully anyway) expand the size of some people's box labeled "assumptions." (in my experience, we all have one)
 
Top