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Contradiction: Who incited David? Satan or God!

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I was on leave for a few days, and will continue with the Atheist and Muslim accusations of Contradictions in the Bible. This one also comes out of Shabir Ali's 101 contradictions.
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
- God did (2 Samuel 24: 1) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

- Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Answer:

The Atheist and Muslim use these two verses as a demonstration to the Christian, that the God of the Bible and Satan are one and the same being. In one verse it says that “Satan” provoked David, and in the other it says the “anger of YHWH” provoked David.

There are however a few facts one should consider before making this accusation.

· The words “Anger of YHWH” and “Satan” are two different identities to YHWH Himself. If 2 Samuel 24:1 said “The Lord”, and not “the Anger of the Lord”, yes, I would agree that it would mean that YHWH and Satan are one and the same person. However, the verse makes this verbal distinction very clear and removes such an accusation.

· If God allows Satan to deceive humans, it is because God was again challenged by Satan to show that Man will forsake God once God removes his hand from him. One just needs to read Job to see how Satan challenged God to remove His protective arm from this “Loyal servant” and assuring God that if he, Satan, were to remove all Job’s possessions and health, Job would certainly curse YHWH. Well, God allowed Satan to drive Job into despair, but Job never stopped believing in the control YHWH had over his life, and God restored Job to his former glory, and more, whilst Satan lost this challenge. Satan might have made David a proud man to count Israel as a boastful king, but in the end, David realised what was going on and he begged forgiveness from God and Satan lost this challenge too.

Conclusion.

If one were to think that God is the one in charge being omnipotent, all knowing and omniscient, but we in creation go ill, suffer, die, get robbed, raped, tortured, and hurt; does this mean God is accountable for this pain? Never, we were created not to die and to live in paradise as Adam and Eve once were fitted with an immortal body of Light. It was only because we, in possession of free will, decided to listen to Satan who revealed himself as Lucifer, the angel of light, and deceived Man to sin. That was when we lost our immortality and became weak humans as we are today.

Now, can we place the blame on God for allowing Satan to deceive Man?

Or would it be wiser for God to have created Man as a mindless robot far from free will?

Therefore, the will of God to allow Satan to deceive, kill, and hurt Man, is only a small insignificant act in His grand plan of salvation where Man will survive as an immortal in the presence of God, and Satan far removed for eternity from the love of our creator. This was the reason why Jesus had to leave His Triune existence, to be born Man like us and to die like us. What an incredible challenge did Satan produce to God to allow a victory at the crucifixion, only to lose at the resurrection.
And it was all in the plan God had before He created it all!
 

sooda

Veteran Member
1 Chronicles 21:1 1Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 1Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
1 Chronicles 21:1 1Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 1Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."
Yes, the "Anger of God, he (the anger of God)" incited David.
Who is the Anger of God?
If the verse read "God became angry and He incited David" , it would be God, but it is not written like this.
Secondly, ask any Jew if he understands the Anger of God, to be God.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Yes, the "Anger of God, he (the anger of God)" incited David.
Who is the Anger of God?
If the verse read "God became angry and He incited David" , it would be God, but it is not written like this.
Secondly, ask any Jew if he understands the Anger of God, to be God.

Maybe the anger of God is for God to incite the devil, or incite the Devil in someone.
Finding contradictions in the bible is a fool's errand. If it was crafted as mythology
masquerading as history then all these "contradictions" would be ironed out.
As it is, they attest the huge age of these documents - the fact they were crafted
by two ancient states (Judah and Israel Bronze Age) they are often taken from
word of mouth (with its own variants) there's the issue of translation and finally
the fact that many things taken as "contradiction" are in fact nothing of the sort, ie
the love of God and the wrath of God is not a contradiction.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Maybe the anger of God is for God to incite the devil, or incite the Devil in someone.
Finding contradictions in the bible is a fool's errand. If it was crafted as mythology
masquerading as history then all these "contradictions" would be ironed out.
As it is, they attest the huge age of these documents - the fact they were crafted
by two ancient states (Judah and Israel Bronze Age) they are often taken from
word of mouth (with its own variants) there's the issue of translation and finally
the fact that many things taken as "contradiction" are in fact nothing of the sort, ie
the love of God and the wrath of God is not a contradiction.

Consider context here,, Judah hated Israel..The people of Samaria were considered half breeds and fake Jews. It probably didn't help that they were more prosperous in the north.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
The Atheist and Muslim use these two verses as a demonstration to the Christian, that the God of the Bible and Satan are one and the same being.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I’d say those two verses suggest the whole idea of the “spiritual” influence is just fictional embellishment by the authors. :cool:
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I can’t speak for anyone else but I’d say those two verses suggest the whole idea of the “spiritual” influence is just fictional embellishment by the authors. :cool:
it can be, but it does not mean that the anger of God are God.
There is a verbal distinction and some might say, saved by the bell, but it still means no knock out anyway.
 
There is no person, place, thing or idea named “Satan” anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Hebrew Verb – שָׂטַן satan means: to be hostile to, to hinder, to accuse. The common Hebrew Masculine Noun – שָׂטָן satan means: adversary, opponent, accuser. There is no instance of the word – שׂטן – in the Hebrew language that is now or has ever been a Proper Noun or a Name.

The only problem anyone has with any of the English (mis)translations of xian “bibles” is purposeful mistranslations based upon xian theological bias. In this case it would be some sort of smoke and mirrors attempt to force fit their fictional “devil” character into the Hebrew Scriptures.

The correct translation of – וַיַּעֲמֹד שָׂטָן עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵלvayyaʿămod satan ʿal-Yis’raʾél is: “An adversary stood up against Israel.” And in this particular situation that adversary happened to be the God of Israel. There is no contradiction, simply theologically biased mistranslation.


 

calm

Active Member
@SA Huguenot
The Hebrew word "Satan" means enemy/ adversary. It means especially the adversary in court who brings charges. In addition, it means anyone who causes trouble to another, persecutes him or attacks him. But Satan also refers to the enemy of God, the devil, the instigator of evil.
The translator must now distinguish whether any adversary or the devil is meant.
So in 1 Chro 21:1 "enemy" would be the correct translation and not "Satan".
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
I was on leave for a few days, and will continue with the Atheist and Muslim accusations of Contradictions in the Bible. This one also comes out of Shabir Ali's 101 contradictions.
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
- God did (2 Samuel 24: 1) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

- Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Answer:

The Atheist and Muslim use these two verses as a demonstration to the Christian, that the God of the Bible and Satan are one and the same being. In one verse it says that “Satan” provoked David, and in the other it says the “anger of YHWH” provoked David.

There are however a few facts one should consider before making this accusation.

· The words “Anger of YHWH” and “Satan” are two different identities to YHWH Himself. If 2 Samuel 24:1 said “The Lord”, and not “the Anger of the Lord”, yes, I would agree that it would mean that YHWH and Satan are one and the same person. However, the verse makes this verbal distinction very clear and removes such an accusation.

· If God allows Satan to deceive humans, it is because God was again challenged by Satan to show that Man will forsake God once God removes his hand from him. One just needs to read Job to see how Satan challenged God to remove His protective arm from this “Loyal servant” and assuring God that if he, Satan, were to remove all Job’s possessions and health, Job would certainly curse YHWH. Well, God allowed Satan to drive Job into despair, but Job never stopped believing in the control YHWH had over his life, and God restored Job to his former glory, and more, whilst Satan lost this challenge. Satan might have made David a proud man to count Israel as a boastful king, but in the end, David realised what was going on and he begged forgiveness from God and Satan lost this challenge too.

Conclusion.

If one were to think that God is the one in charge being omnipotent, all knowing and omniscient, but we in creation go ill, suffer, die, get robbed, raped, tortured, and hurt; does this mean God is accountable for this pain? Never, we were created not to die and to live in paradise as Adam and Eve once were fitted with an immortal body of Light. It was only because we, in possession of free will, decided to listen to Satan who revealed himself as Lucifer, the angel of light, and deceived Man to sin. That was when we lost our immortality and became weak humans as we are today.

Now, can we place the blame on God for allowing Satan to deceive Man?

Or would it be wiser for God to have created Man as a mindless robot far from free will?

Therefore, the will of God to allow Satan to deceive, kill, and hurt Man, is only a small insignificant act in His grand plan of salvation where Man will survive as an immortal in the presence of God, and Satan far removed for eternity from the love of our creator. This was the reason why Jesus had to leave His Triune existence, to be born Man like us and to die like us. What an incredible challenge did Satan produce to God to allow a victory at the crucifixion, only to lose at the resurrection.
And it was all in the plan God had before He created it all!

God is not satan. But, satan has nothing on God. satan moves about and does what he does according to his hatred of God and anything or anyone connected with God.

God, because He is God, simply watches and observes satan's actions and uses him for His purpose. It must be extremely frustrating for satan. he does what he thinks will damage God and his people, yet winds up playing into the hand of God.

So, satan knew the king of Israel was not to number the people. And David was king and a man of God. And satan tempted him to number the people. God knew satan's motive. And because God was ready to enact judgement on Israel, then He let satan go ahead with his temptation. Which resulted in judgement upon David and Israel.

No contradiction. Just God being God. Nothing is out of His control.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
There are however a few facts one should consider before making this accusation.

· The words “Anger of YHWH” and “Satan” are two different identities to YHWH Himself. If 2 Samuel 24:1 said “The Lord”, and not “the Anger of the Lord”, yes, I would agree that it would mean that YHWH and Satan are one and the same person. However, the verse makes this verbal distinction very clear and removes such an accusation.
Well, there are a slew of renderings of 2 Samuel 24:1 that leave no doubt god caused David to act against them. Here are a few representative examples:

CEB
The Lord burned with anger against Israel again, and he incited David against them: Go and count the people of Israel and Judah.

CJB
The anger of Adonai blazed up against Isra’el, so he moved David to act against them by saying, “Go, take a census of Isra’el and Y’hudah.”

ERV
The Lord was angry with Israel again. He caused David to turn against the Israelites. He told David, “Go count the people of Israel and Judah.”

GNT
On another occasion the Lord was angry with Israel, and he made David bring trouble on them. The Lord said to him, “Go and count the people of Israel and Judah.”

NABRE
The Lord’s anger against Israel flared again, and he incited David against them: “Go, take a census of Israel and Judah.”

WYC
And the strong vengeance of the Lord added to be wroth against Israel, and he stirred against them David, saying to Joab, Go thou, and number thou Israel and Judah. (And again the Lord was angry with Israel, and in his strong vengeance he stirred David against them, so that he said to Joab, Go thou, and count the people of Israel and Judah.)​


If God allows Satan to deceive humans, it is because God was again challenged by Satan to show that Man will forsake God once God removes his hand from him.
As an omniscient deity wouldn't god already know this, and not need Satan to show him?

One just needs to read Job to see how Satan challenged God to remove His protective arm from this “Loyal servant” and assuring God that if he, Satan, were to remove all Job’s possessions and health, Job would certainly curse YHWH. Well, God allowed Satan to drive Job into despair, but Job never stopped believing in the control YHWH had over his life, and God restored Job to his former glory, and more, whilst Satan lost this challenge. Satan might have made David a proud man to count Israel as a boastful king, but in the end, David realised what was going on and he begged forgiveness from God and Satan lost this challenge too.
So you believe god is so clueless that he let Satan snooker god into showing him something god already had an answer to? From what I've gathered about the god of Abraham he would not.

Conclusion.
If one were to think that God is the one in charge being omnipotent, all knowing and omniscient, but we in creation go ill, suffer, die, get robbed, raped, tortured, and hurt; does this mean God is accountable for this pain?
Of course it does.

Never, we were created not to die and to live in paradise as Adam and Eve once were fitted with an immortal body of Light. It was only because we, in possession of free will, decided to listen to Satan who revealed himself as Lucifer, the angel of light, and deceived Man to sin. That was when we lost our immortality and became weak humans as we are today.
Free will is only an illusion Christians require so as to give meaning to sin and salvation. It is no more true than the belief that President Donald J. Trump is not a liar.

.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Well, there are a slew of renderings of 2 Samuel 24:1 that leave no doubt god caused David to act against them. Here are a few representative examples:

CEB
The Lord burned with anger against Israel again, and he incited David against them: Go and count the people of Israel and Judah.

CJB
The anger of Adonai blazed up against Isra’el, so he moved David to act against them by saying, “Go, take a census of Isra’el and Y’hudah.”

ERV
The Lord was angry with Israel again. He caused David to turn against the Israelites. He told David, “Go count the people of Israel and Judah.”

GNT
On another occasion the Lord was angry with Israel, and he made David bring trouble on them. The Lord said to him, “Go and count the people of Israel and Judah.”

NABRE
The Lord’s anger against Israel flared again, and he incited David against them: “Go, take a census of Israel and Judah.”

WYC
And the strong vengeance of the Lord added to be wroth against Israel, and he stirred against them David, saying to Joab, Go thou, and number thou Israel and Judah. (And again the Lord was angry with Israel, and in his strong vengeance he stirred David against them, so that he said to Joab, Go thou, and count the people of Israel and Judah.)​



As an omniscient deity wouldn't god already know this, and not need Satan to show him?


So you believe god is so clueless that he let Satan snooker god into showing him something god already had an answer to? From what I've gathered about the god of Abraham he would not.


Of course it does.


Free will is only an illusion Christians require so as to give meaning to sin and salvation. It is no more true than the belief that President Donald J. Trump is not a liar.

.

Indeed. God was against Israel at this time. Thus it is satan that played into God's hand. As i said, how frustrating that must be with him. He never wins....even when he thinks he is winning.

There is no 'free will'. There is 'will'. All men have a will but no man has free will.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I was on leave for a few days, and will continue with the Atheist and Muslim accusations of Contradictions in the Bible. This one also comes out of Shabir Ali's 101 contradictions.
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
- God did (2 Samuel 24: 1) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

- Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Answer:

The Atheist and Muslim use these two verses as a demonstration to the Christian, that the God of the Bible and Satan are one and the same being. In one verse it says that “Satan” provoked David, and in the other it says the “anger of YHWH” provoked David.

There are however a few facts one should consider before making this accusation.

· The words “Anger of YHWH” and “Satan” are two different identities to YHWH Himself. If 2 Samuel 24:1 said “The Lord”, and not “the Anger of the Lord”, yes, I would agree that it would mean that YHWH and Satan are one and the same person. However, the verse makes this verbal distinction very clear and removes such an accusation.

· If God allows Satan to deceive humans, it is because God was again challenged by Satan to show that Man will forsake God once God removes his hand from him. One just needs to read Job to see how Satan challenged God to remove His protective arm from this “Loyal servant” and assuring God that if he, Satan, were to remove all Job’s possessions and health, Job would certainly curse YHWH. Well, God allowed Satan to drive Job into despair, but Job never stopped believing in the control YHWH had over his life, and God restored Job to his former glory, and more, whilst Satan lost this challenge. Satan might have made David a proud man to count Israel as a boastful king, but in the end, David realised what was going on and he begged forgiveness from God and Satan lost this challenge too.

Conclusion.

If one were to think that God is the one in charge being omnipotent, all knowing and omniscient, but we in creation go ill, suffer, die, get robbed, raped, tortured, and hurt; does this mean God is accountable for this pain? Never, we were created not to die and to live in paradise as Adam and Eve once were fitted with an immortal body of Light. It was only because we, in possession of free will, decided to listen to Satan who revealed himself as Lucifer, the angel of light, and deceived Man to sin. That was when we lost our immortality and became weak humans as we are today.

Now, can we place the blame on God for allowing Satan to deceive Man?

Or would it be wiser for God to have created Man as a mindless robot far from free will?

Therefore, the will of God to allow Satan to deceive, kill, and hurt Man, is only a small insignificant act in His grand plan of salvation where Man will survive as an immortal in the presence of God, and Satan far removed for eternity from the love of our creator. This was the reason why Jesus had to leave His Triune existence, to be born Man like us and to die like us. What an incredible challenge did Satan produce to God to allow a victory at the crucifixion, only to lose at the resurrection.
And it was all in the plan God had before He created it all!
I pretty much agree with most of what you wrote, except the omniscience of God.

I believe in the open view of God, that says God does not know what has not happened, but knows every possibility, and has a plan for each and every one. The exception is prophecy, whereby God, by the use of omnipotence, reaches into history, and brings his chosen path about.

In my view, omniscience destroys free will.

If a trillion years before I was born, God knew my life intimately, I can make no choice, but the choice God knew I would make. I am 100% predestined to the life God foresaw, and I cannot do anything that he did not see, my free will is an illusion. No matter what choice I think I am making, I can only do what God foresaw. I have no choice.

The same applies to satan, so he too had no choice, he was created to do what he does.

Therefore, God is directly responsible for evil, pain , and suffering.

However, If God had a plan to cope with whatever could happen, yet did not known what would happen then satan chose evil, and so do I. I have complete free will, I choose to love God, or not.

My life is not a movie God saw before I existed, and I am not an actor replaying exactly that movie.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I pretty much agree with most of what you wrote, except the omniscience of God.

I believe in the open view of God, that says God does not know what has not happened, but knows every possibility, and has a plan for each and every one. The exception is prophecy, whereby God, by the use of omnipotence, reaches into history, and brings his chosen path about.

In my view, omniscience destroys free will.

If a trillion years before I was born, God knew my life intimately, I can make no choice, but the choice God knew I would make. I am 100% predestined to the life God foresaw, and I cannot do anything that he did not see, my free will is an illusion. No matter what choice I think I am making, I can only do what God foresaw. I have no choice.

The same applies to satan, so he too had no choice, he was created to do what he does.

Therefore, God is directly responsible for evil, pain , and suffering.

However, If God had a plan to cope with whatever could happen, yet did not known what would happen then satan chose evil, and so do I. I have complete free will, I choose to love God, or not.

My life is not a movie God saw before I existed, and I am not an actor replaying exactly that movie.
You placed a million thoughts in my mind.
TNX
 
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