Contradiction in the Qur'an.

[stevecanuck]

Surah 9 was created at the time of Mohamed's expedition to Tabuk. Much of the surah is dedicated to his fruitless efforts to get the Hypocrites to fight alongside him.

Verse 9:43 says, (Mohsin Khan translation): "May Allah forgive you (O Muhammad SAW). Why did you grant them leave (for remaining behind, you should have persisted as regards your order to them to proceed on Jihad), until those who told the truth were seen by you in a clear light, and you had known the liars?".

This leaves no doubt that Allah thought it was Mohamed's fault that the Hypocrites stayed back because he didn't try hard enough to get them to join his army.

Then 9:46 admits that it was actually Allah, not Mohamed, who was responsible for them not joining the fight, "And if they had intended to march out, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind".

This is a clear contradiction. Comments?

 

[Augustus]

Verse 9:43 says, (Mohsin Khan translation): "May Allah forgive you (O Muhammad SAW). Why did you grant them leave (for remaining behind, you should have persisted as regards your order to them to proceed on Jihad), until those who told the truth were seen by you in a clear light, and you had known the liars?".

This leaves no doubt that Allah thought it was Mohamed's fault that the Hypocrites stayed back because he didn't try hard enough to get them to join his army.

Then 9:46 admits that it was actually Allah, not Mohamed, who was responsible for them not joining the fight, "And if they had intended to march out, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind".

This is a clear contradiction. Comments?

You know the stuff in the brackets isn't actually in the Quran? It is added by the translator.

The verse:

God pardon thee! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars

Based on the Quran, there is no mention of Muhammad in these verses so why is it clear that it was Muhammad's fault?

 

[stevecanuck]

You know the stuff in the brackets isn't actually in the Quran? It is added by the translator.

The verse:

God pardon thee! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars

Based on the Quran, there is no mention of Muhammad in these verses so why is it clear that it was Muhammad's fault?

Various translators had no problem making the connection. Plus it's obvious by reading the surah. Who else could it be referring to?

 

[Augustus]

Various translators had no problem making the connection.

The translators usually base their interpolations on hadith and sirah literature, not the Quran.

Plus it's obvious by reading the surah.

If it is obvious why does the translator feel the need to add an interpolation to clarify?

Who else could it be referring to?

The community of believers or parts thereof

 

[exchemist]

Surah 9 was created at the time of Mohamed's expedition to Tabuk. Much of the surah is dedicated to his fruitless efforts to get the Hypocrites to fight alongside him.

Verse 9:43 says, (Mohsin Khan translation): "May Allah forgive you (O Muhammad SAW). Why did you grant them leave (for remaining behind, you should have persisted as regards your order to them to proceed on Jihad), until those who told the truth were seen by you in a clear light, and you had known the liars?".

This leaves no doubt that Allah thought it was Mohamed's fault that the Hypocrites stayed back because he didn't try hard enough to get them to join his army.

Then 9:46 admits that it was actually Allah, not Mohamed, who was responsible for them not joining the fight, "And if they had intended to march out, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind".

This is a clear contradiction. Comments?

If it were a contradiction, which it seems it may not be, why would that require comment? The bible has its contradictions, so why not the Koran?

 

[stevecanuck]

The translators usually base their interpolations on hadith and sirah literature, not the Quran.



If it is obvious why does the translator feel the need to add an interpolation to clarify?



The community of believers or parts thereof

Ok, I'll play along because it doesn't matter. Let's say it's not Mohamed, but someone else. That doesn't change the nature of the contradiction. Allah blames some person in 43 for letting the Hypocrites stay back from the fight, and then admits in 46 that he kept them back for their lack of preparation. The contradiction still exists.

 

[stevecanuck]

If it were a contradiction, which it seems it may not be, why would that require comment?

Because Allah is "unerring". These are supposed to be the verbatim words of a perfect god. If they are indeed contradictory (which they obviously are), then it would indicate that they were NOT authored by Allah. It would bring the entire qur'an into disrepute.

The bible has its contradictions, so why not the Koran?

Start a thread. but please don't highjack this one.

 

[Augustus]

Ok, I'll play along because it doesn't matter. Let's say it's not Mohamed, but someone else. That doesn't change the nature of the contradiction. Allah blames some person in 43 for letting the Hypocrites stay back from the fight, and then admits in 46 that he kept them back for their lack of preparation. The contradiction still exists.

43: god pardon thee! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

(If you had pushed them, you would have seen who was really with you and who was just pretending)

46: If they had desired to go forth, they would have made some preparation for it; but God was averse that they should be aroused, so He made them pause, and it was said to them, 'Tarry you with the tarriers.'

(god didn't want the pretenders with you so he revealed some of them to you [but you had let them off the hook by not pressing the issue])

 

[stevecanuck]

43: god pardon thee! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

(If you had pushed them, you would have seen who was really with you and who was just pretending)

46: If they had desired to go forth, they would have made some preparation for it; but God was averse that they should be aroused, so He made them pause, and it was said to them, 'Tarry you with the tarriers.'

(god didn't want the pretenders with you so he revealed some of them to you [but you had let them off the hook by not pressing the issue])

So? You didn't respond to all of 9:43. I'll underline the part you're not addressing:

Sahih International: May Allah pardon you, [O Muhammad]; why did you give them permission [to remain behind]? [You should not have] until it was evident to you who were truthful and you knew [who were] the liars.

Pickthall: Allah forgive thee (O Muhammad)! Wherefor didst thou grant them leave ere those who told the truth were manifest to thee and thou didst know the liars?

Yusuf Ali: Allah give thee grace! why didst thou grant them until those who told the truth were seen by thee in a clear light, and thou hadst proved the liars?

Shakir: Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?

Muhammad Sarwar: May God forgive you! (Muhammad), why did you not let them join the army so that you could discern the liars from the truthful ones?

Mohsin Khan: May Allah forgive you (O Muhammad SAW). Why did you grant them leave (for remaining behind, you should have persisted as regards your order to them to proceed on Jihad), until those who told the truth were seen by you in a clear light, and you had known the liars?

Arberry: God pardon thee! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

Clearly Allah is taking this mystery person, who we are pretending might be someone other than Mohamed, to task. He is berating him. It's obvious. Then Allah turns around 3 verses later and claims to have been the one who made them stay behind.

The fact remains that if Allah MADE them stay behind, then it was NOT up to some person to ALLOW them to stay behind.

Again, the contradiction could not be more obvious.

 

[exchemist]

Because Allah is "unerring". These are supposed to be the verbatim words of a perfect god. If they are indeed contradictory (which they obviously are), then it would indicate that they were NOT authored by Allah. It would bring the entire qur'an into disrepute.



Start a thread. but please don't highjack this one.

No I'm not interested in exploring contradictions in the bible and I'm not hijacking the thread.

I'm simply pointing that a comparison can be made with the bible. Just as the bible has its contradictions, in spite of being divinely inspired, according to Christians, the Koran may also contain contradictions and yet be considered divinely inspired by Muslims.

But I do agree that, just as with the bible, it seems hopeless to maintain that the text is error-free, even if the messages it contains are divine.

 

[stevecanuck]

No I'm not interested in exploring contradictions in the bible and I'm not hijacking the thread.

I'm simply pointing that a comparison can be made with the bible. Just as the bible has its contradictions, in spite of being divinely inspired, according to Christians, the Koran may also contain contradictions and yet be considered divinely inspired by Muslims.

But I do agree that, just as with the bible, it seems hopeless to maintain that the text is error-free, even if the messages it contains are divine.

You're missing the point. Muslims do not believe the qur'an was inspired by Allah. They believe is was AUTHORED by Allah, and clearly a perfect, unerring god would not make such a glaringly contradictory statement. This leads us to conclude that the qur'an was created by a mortal rather than by a god.

 

[exchemist]

You're missing the point. Muslims do not believe the qur'an was inspired by Allah. They believe is was AUTHORED by Allah, and clearly a perfect, unerring god would not make such a glaringly contradictory statement. This leads us to conclude that the qur'an was created by a mortal rather than by a god.

Well yes, sort of. It was said to have been dictated to Mohammed by the angel Jabreel, wasn't it? So one or two bits could have got garbled, presumably. Couldn't they?

But actually I'm basically agreeing with you, that to maintain the text is error-free seems just as hopeless for the Quran as it is for the bible.

 

[Shakeel]

The fact remains that if Allah MADE them stay behind, then it was NOT up to some person to ALLOW them to stay behind.

You're ignoring free will. If a person dies in the ER, it is God's will. Does that mean the doctors and nurses shouldn't have helped them? They don't know if the person will die or not. It is their duty to help.

 

[Augustus]

So? You didn't respond to all of 9:43. I'll underline the part you're not addressing:

Sahih International: May Allah pardon you, [O Muhammad]; why did you give them permission [to remain behind]? [You should not have] until it was evident to you who were truthful and you knew [who were] the liars.

Pickthall: Allah forgive thee (O Muhammad)! Wherefor didst thou grant them leave ere those who told the truth were manifest to thee and thou didst know the liars?

Yusuf Ali: Allah give thee grace! why didst thou grant them until those who told the truth were seen by thee in a clear light, and thou hadst proved the liars?

Shakir: Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?

Muhammad Sarwar: May God forgive you! (Muhammad), why did you not let them join the army so that you could discern the liars from the truthful ones?

Mohsin Khan: May Allah forgive you (O Muhammad SAW). Why did you grant them leave (for remaining behind, you should have persisted as regards your order to them to proceed on Jihad), until those who told the truth were seen by you in a clear light, and you had known the liars?

Arberry: God pardon thee! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

Clearly Allah is taking this mystery person, who we are pretending might be someone other than Mohamed, to task. He is berating him. It's obvious. Then Allah turns around 3 verses later and claims to have been the one who made them stay behind.

The fact remains that if Allah MADE them stay behind, then it was NOT up to some person to ALLOW them to stay behind.

Again, the contradiction could not be more obvious.

You are confusing 2 different things, as all of those quotes explain:

1. You should have forced them to come along so you would know which people refused as these are the bad apples.

2. The ones who would have refused would have refused because God made them refuse as he didn't want the bad apples going along with you.

He is not being admonished because some people stayed behind, but because he granted them permission to stay behind thus missing a chance to identify those who would have refused his order had he forced the issue.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You're missing the point. Muslims do not believe the qur'an was inspired by Allah. They believe is was AUTHORED by Allah, and clearly a perfect, unerring god would not make such a glaringly contradictory statement. This leads us to conclude that the qur'an was created by a mortal rather than by a god.

@stevecanuck if you are not a muslim, why worry so much about something you do not even believe?
Muslims will believe no matter what you think of us.

 

[stevecanuck]

You're ignoring free will. If a person dies in the ER, it is God's will. Does that mean the doctors and nurses shouldn't have helped them? They don't know if the person will die or not. It is their duty to help.

That meant nothing.

 

[stevecanuck]

You are confusing 2 different things, as all of those quotes explain:

1. You should have forced them to come along so you would know which people refused as these are the bad apples.

2. The ones who would have refused would have refused because God made them refuse as he didn't want the bad apples going along with you.

He is not being admonished because some people stayed behind, but because he granted them permission to stay behind thus missing a chance to identify those who would have refused his order had he forced the issue.

Please tell us how this makes any sense. On one hand 43 is saying Mohamed should have forced them to go, which means he would have had to override what God made them do. That's utter nonsense.

 

[stevecanuck]

@stevecanuck if you are not a muslim, why worry so much about something you do not even believe?
Muslims will believe no matter what you think of us.

That's easy. I'm concerned about what Islam teaches because of the acts of terrorism it inspires

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's easy. I'm concerned about what Islam teaches because of the acts of terrorism it inspires

The terrorists are not true Muslims, the terror they do is so far from true islam as you can come.
But they do use islam as their shield to say Allah told them to do it. That is honestly Bullcrap.

A true muslim do not harm others.

 

[stevecanuck]

The terrorists are not true Muslims, the terror they do is so far from true islam as you can come.
But they do use islam as their shield to say Allah told them to do it. That is honestly Bullcrap.

A true muslim do not harm others.

Whatever gets you through the day.

9:111 - "Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed.".