Contradicting "messengers"

[Truthseeker]

Are you trying to apologize? BTW, I was not attacking you in challenging your ideas. You however were attacking me calling those challenges as "tirades", which they most certainly were not. In other words, you attacked me unprovoked.


I only began focusing on your behaviors since you started personally attacking me calling my debate challenges "tirades", and then all of your subsequent projections trying to say things like I'm trying to silence you, and other such utterly unfounded fabrications. All I can say at this point is, you're really not much of a debater if you have to try to make things personal like this. Perhaps you might serve yourself better by not participating in online discussions with others? I can't imagine I'm the first person you've done this with, or has pointed this out to you.

I notice you avoided addressing when I said that my initial post was about what we believe, and nothing else. I felt that taking it any other way was inappropriate on your part. I didn't like that.

Yes, I was apologizing. It seemed like a tirade at the time, because you felt I was being "offensive". Isn't that attacking my behavior? On my part, I got angry and wasn't thinking clearly in my responses, which is a lapse on my part. Take responsibilty for your part. Please!

 

[Windwalker]

I notice you avoided addressing when I said that my initial post was about what we believe, and nothing else. I felt that taking it any other way was inappropriate on your part. I didn't like that.

I believe I did address that. To try to evade taking responsibility for being offensive towards others saying, "I'm only stating what I believe. I have a right to say what I believe", is to basically say the other person shouldn't complain about your being offended, which is what you did. Sure, you have a right to be offensive towards others. But is that something a person of integrity should choose for themselves?

Yes, I was apologizing.

That didn't sound too much like an apology, since you basically said you were angry because of someone else's perceived actions. "It's your fault I got angry", rather than saying, "I apologize for my inappropriate response of anger". Look at how you worded this, "I have gotten angry with what you have written in your posts,"

No, you made yourself angry. Your anger was and is 100% your own responsibility, and I have nothing to do with that.

It seemed like a tirade at the time, because you felt I was being "offensive". Isn't that attacking my behavior?

No. Someone telling you you are saying offensive things is them asserting themselves. There is a difference between someone asserting themselves, telling the truth directly as they see it, and them being aggressive. You can't say to someone who has told you you offend them, that they are attacking you. That's not only untrue, it's also offensive and insulting them.

On my part, I got angry and wasn't thinking clearly in my responses, which is a lapse on my part.

That sounds like an apology.

Take responsibilty for your part. Please!

This does not sound like an apology. I will not apologize for calling out something that I see offensive. There is nothing to apologize for in doing that. It was a moral choice and action to say something about it. All I have been doing is asking you to own what you did, and not try to make it about someone else. You don't need me to say I did something wrong in order to take responsibility for yourself.

You'd be surprised how people respond when you don't try to make it about them and make it only about yourself. It's one of those hidden gems found in humility.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Multiple comparisons between country government censuses with the Baha'i numbers.

I don't thinks that proves they were deliberately trying to inflate the numbers, thus dishonest.
It is possible that the Baha'i administration simply got it wrong.

It takes a knowledge of how the numbers were obtained and how they are removed.

People have signed declaration cards and this makes up the Numbers.

In Australia each one of those persons, or if it was a family group, they would receive a monthly Baha'i Bulletin.

To be removed from the Baha'i List, an Administrative process is required before a person is removed.

If many people became Baha'i in an area that did not have an Administrative process, then they are still on the list and still get mailed a Bulletin. If they do not contact the Administration to be removed, then they are not.

Simple really.

I would offer that there are many people that identify with the Baha'i Faith, that do not put it on to a census form. Yet if there was a box to tick for Baha'i, like there is for more larger faiths, then that would change the numbers considerably.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

That sounds like an apology.

Right.

This does not sound like an apology. I will not apologize for calling out something that I see offensive.

That's what I was doing in what you quoted above. I was not trying to be offensive either. I was just answering a question.

This will never work, I don't think. I don't think we can talk to each other, just past each other. There's too much water under the bridge. I can't respond to you the way I want to, with kindness and humlity. I have not been kind or humble.

 

[Muffled]

Can you cite any Bible verses where Jesus states reincarnation as a fact?

John the Baptist is Elijah.

 

[Muffled]

We believe that to be Baha’u’llah and He explains that it is a misconception and misinterpretation. That rebirth and return signify spiritual rebirth.

I believe that reveals the B man does not know what he is talking about. It just isn't in his philosophy.

 

[Muffled]

I see we need to learn from each other, but in the context of the age we live in.

If we are all being guided by God, then we will find purpose in all genuine exchanges of knowledge.

The issue we all face is, what truths are from our own imaginations and what are from the source of all knowledge?

Regards Tony

I believe that raises a question. How does a person imagine? Doesn't a person have to have some information to base imagination on? For instance imagining a horn on a horse requires knowledge of a horse.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe that reveals the B man does not know what he is talking about. It just isn't in his philosophy.

That’s what the Pharisees and Sadducees said about Christ.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe that raises a question. How does a person imagine? Doesn't a person have to have some information to base imagination on? For instance imagining a horn on a horse requires knowledge of a horse.

How are new inventions and discoveries made of yet unknown objects and scientific proofs?

Man taps into a wisdom or knowledge that already exists, we just have to find it and use our rational mind to construct it.

What about Science fiction. Many previously unseen objects are shown on the screen and then can become a reality. This also shows that our rational mind is already just interpreting the possibilities that are already available in the Intelligence design.

Many inventions come from dreams.

Our quandary is sorting truth from materialistic based vain imaginations.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

John the Baptist is Elijah.

Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-iqan explains all the Messengers are the return of the former Messengers.

It is the Attributes of God we talk of, not of the human spirit.

This is the Case also with Elijah and John the Baptist. Those Attributes also returned in the Bab.

The Bab's Shrine is now on Mount Carmel, close to the Cave of Elijah. God is Most Great!

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It takes a knowledge of how the numbers were obtained and how they are removed.

People have signed declaration cards and this makes up the Numbers.

In Australia each one of those persons, or if it was a family group, they would receive a monthly Baha'i Bulletin.

To be removed from the Baha'i List, an Administrative process is required before a person is removed.

If many people became Baha'i in an area that did not have an Administrative process, then they are still on the list and still get mailed a Bulletin. If they do not contact the Administration to be removed, then they are not.

Simple really.

I would offer that there are many people that identify with the Baha'i Faith, that do not put it on to a census form. Yet if there was a box to tick for Baha'i, like there is for more larger faiths, then that would change the numbers considerably.

Regards Tony

It seems like it would be important information for the Baha'i headquarters to know... how many people in a community are active members and attend feast regularly. How many vote at the conventions. How many individual Baha'is host or attend firesides.

Just going by how many people signed a declaration card is next to useless. But then again, the Messiah has come. Christ has returned. The Maitreya and Kalki have come, The Mahdi and everyone else have all come in the one person, Baha'u'llah, and we're having people sign a card saying they believe in him?

I don't think that was prophesied....

"In that day he will come in total obsurity and few will recognize that the Promised One of all ages has come. Slowly, people of all races, religions and nations shall here of his coming and read the things he wrote, because he will be long since dead. But his religion lives on and grows and grows. Maybe slow to some, but not to God. One by one people everywhere will sign a card declaring their beliefs in the Promised One. Of course, what does signing a card mean? Some will fall by the wayside, not taking to heart the truth of his coming. Some will become token believers, attending a few events but doing little to promote his great cause. But a precious few will take it to heart and proclaim his message far and wide and will be the cause of getting others to sign their names on a card... declaring to the world, the great day of the Lord's anointed has come."

 

[CG Didymus]

We believe that to be Baha’u’llah and He explains that it is a misconception and misinterpretation. That rebirth and return signify spiritual rebirth.

Or that rebirth/reincarnation were taught in Hinduism and Buddhism, but rebirth and reincarnation are not believed to be true by Baha'is. But again, Baha'is can't say that. Baha'is had to invent a way to keep Krishna and the Buddha from having taught those things. That simplest way was to say they never taught those things, but the their followers misinterpreted their teachings and created the doctrines of rebirth and reincarnation. Accept it is in the Scriptures of those religions. So, then Baha'is question the accuracy of those Scriptures in actually conveying the true teachings of Krishna and Buddha. But wasn't reincarnation part of Hindu beliefs prior to Krishna?

That's doing too much work and changing too many things just to get rid of those beliefs. Just say Baha'is don't believe rebirth and reincarnation. What is wrong with different people in different religions having different beliefs? Ah yes, Baha'is believe all religions came from the same source, their God. That God would never have had one of his manifestations say something like rebirth and reincarnation is true. Therefore, it must have been their followers that invented those things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't think that was prophesied....

Maybe we could reflect on this passage.

To me it is about the birth of a Faith.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Baha'u'llah offered this, knowing the process takes time.

"...When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God's Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth..."

The quote before and after this are worth reading as well. Shoghi Effendi compiled these quotes and they tell a progressive story.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, page 319

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe we could reflect on this passage.

To me it is about the birth of a Faith.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Baha'u'llah offered this, knowing the process takes time.

"...When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God's Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth..."

The quote before and after this are worth reading as well. Shoghi Effendi compiled these quotes and they tell a progressive story.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, page 319

Regards Tony

Everything you say might be true, I don't know. I'm just going by what the Baha'i Faith says as compared to what other religions say. The way it is worded, especially with the return of Jesus, is that the world will be going through terrible times and when they are at their worst, then Jesus comes and destroys all the evil kings and all the evil people, and he destroys Satan. He fixes things right then and there. If that's not correct, then fine. What prophesies do Baha'is go by?

As I've asked before... Which prophesies have the Messiah, or promised one, return before the tribulations, die and not fix things? But just leave his teachings to be applied by fallible people someday? The Baha'is don't have all the answers. They have some answers. And some answers aren't that bad, but they depend on believing and seeing things as taught by Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders.

For me, there are enough things to doubt and question and not just jump on board with everything the Baha'is believe. And since a lot of these threads are talking about and dealing with evidence, then we should also look at the evidence against the Baha'i Faith being the truth. And it's how Baha'i deal with that negative evidence that also becomes evidence as to not be too quick to trust everything that Baha'is say and claim. Maybe it's true, but maybe not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Everything you say might be true, I don't know. I'm just going by what the Baha'i Faith says as compared to what other religions say. The way it is worded, especially with the return of Jesus, is that the world will be going through terrible times and when they are at their worst, then Jesus comes and destroys all the evil kings and all the evil people, and he destroys Satan. He fixes things right then and there. If that's not correct, then fine. What prophesies do Baha'is go by?

As I've asked before... Which prophesies have the Messiah, or promised one, return before the tribulations, die and not fix things? But just leave his teachings to be applied by fallible people someday? The Baha'is don't have all the answers. They have some answers. And some answers aren't that bad, but they depend on believing and seeing things as taught by Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders.

For me, there are enough things to doubt and question and not just jump on board with everything the Baha'is believe. And since a lot of these threads are talking about and dealing with evidence, then we should also look at the evidence against the Baha'i Faith being the truth. And it's how Baha'i deal with that negative evidence that also becomes evidence as to not be too quick to trust everything that Baha'is say and claim. Maybe it's true, but maybe not.

I see Revelation 20 as a transition from Christianity to Islam to Baha'i. Far to much illusion for me to see it clearly.

It appears to be giving praise to those that did not become part of the Beast that ruled Islam.

God and the Messengers are One, as such I see God makes no difference between who are the believers and the Faithful.

I like this section in verse 4, it appears be mentioning both Christians and Muslims.

"...beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God..." So I see this mentions the witnesses of Jesus, the Christians and those that followed the Word of God, the Quran and did not follow the Beast of Islam.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see Revelation 20 as a transition from Christianity to Islam to Baha'i. Far to much illusion for me to see it clearly.

It appears to be giving praise to those that did not become part of the Beast that ruled Islam.

God and the Messengers are One, as such I see God makes no difference between who are the believers and the Faithful.

I like this section in verse 4, it appears be mentioning both Christians and Muslims.

"...beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God..." So I see this mentions the witnesses of Jesus, the Christians and those that followed the Word of God, the Quran and did not follow the Beast of Islam.

Regards Tony

If you can, explain a little more of what you see, because all I see is Gog and Magog and a thousand years of having Satan chained up. So, who is Gog and Magog, and, since Baha'is have already committed themselves to a day for a year interpretation, then what is a thousand years? That's 1000x360 days?

 

[CG Didymus]

I see Revelation 20 as a transition from Christianity to Islam to Baha'i. Far to much illusion for me to see it clearly.

If you can, explain a little more of what you see, because all I see is Gog and Magog and a thousand years of having Satan chained up. So, who is Gog and Magog, and, since Baha'is have already committed themselves to a day for a year interpretation, then what is a thousand years? That's 1000x360 days?

Any comments on this yet?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Any comments on this yet?

I have no comment to make CG.

Regards Tony